X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NYOYKFL4 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=3OQ4E8nLlG33UDNfGB8dOA==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=UE2mGxN3AAAA:20 a=VcB5FXVVAAAA:20 a=GLeGduIwAAAA:20 a=Y9VTYf-DAAAA:20 a=3fHomcWD5Ly2fwe1Eb4A:9 a=-fQyrz7cGNraYHjT:21 a=wGCVhqCIGGakL9yF:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=BNFBz-y2x4lWte9m1mgA:9 a=MxUE2hhF5HOd9jjW:21 a=4APl4yWLTTQ4cy8a:21 a=z77jDlg3cqMCBwI_:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=LwX-U-nOfP1m2u8RUeUA:9 a=Hyr7ibVrZbSyE6gl:18 a=KQqxNPgzF0kA:10 a=VEiTNn8F7TgA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=pHzHmUro8NiASowvMSCR:22 a=n87TN5wuljxrRezIQYnT:22 From: " 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pg1-f174.google.com ([209.85.215.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 226123 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 09 May 2020 17:45:32 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.174; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pg1-f174.google.com with SMTP id 207so2597507pgc.6 for ; Sat, 09 May 2020 14:45:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=6djlN//B1S1C6uq0LA6E0aLoNU0YTilUjWqm1TDfUic=; b=uzPAKgAooU2HRcuH7WcbWxqoE9mLVh4Fe053TvXXe0sYy6zNEOJxoSfiycuDJsBubR aJ+9/8rdMppJbSToYOPKIB+xxetlkWdO89oklz97KfiH92hrut9WAG5ZGzVvB7nLhMqw kslIT/uhDWttpJyx4ZKJzxhLc17BECnh+UzcMpTKkWJTBWXUDmtkuzv3h0GoimXh6plu Z+WecnuxAI1+C26/mUiJRmxcRNYc8DLdXg05FvV7MYGrp06tlbyuCoENzpTnMOU3DOzH 1Ey8/0L0oE0QexaRUDsTv08Ik1CCB3d5m7Lxw8pRrB1ID4IlBwPMT935cYVR1SkbqzsU zWZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=6djlN//B1S1C6uq0LA6E0aLoNU0YTilUjWqm1TDfUic=; b=r8lFadjD8D9gMxaZQXKy2GlNuLvhlctgtMuvNHld46jb+1uYBPUV4M9zEMvJ4iDRRy 9U4Smw4WDijVY0WCcM0aX2+cyO4JEBss5xjKAkrRluiKayb/0Rr6QGIMJM9uHOLir0OB v7Rda/48aHIJP3/ilh4r+wqPSqeoExYYGeQNda1sVIfRMg6UCy0nu2uh5G23WiGsRYyG 195o2YNPQKZAQvUbvEnAA++hFChf46h91XZYcgXeW9kY/ZNYy39x6auowdzyO1KrDfzA 1qNOInyh2eyjVPT6SS4mzrsdkmR0ARtVyXlOG/tUT2b0FyM7WWYrylidiscdSavtoiWK CqnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYQVGVzne6Z1Oe0MsUsIUmWdKBNKfYpF77eaufi5Dl1QKXejdGs vEglGP5RZv3NyxehCusDybkKRQ/4N9o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJJVuiic+r+XBXIvr4HZXlsj8IxWKnr88AJV5lu5aTEr1cOLqwo7PAhSDEcO4nHuupxNxHCxQ== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9889:: with SMTP id r9mr9477367pfl.233.1589060714703; Sat, 09 May 2020 14:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from UserPC ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a22sm5404035pfg.169.2020.05.09.14.45.12 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 May 2020 14:45:14 -0700 (PDT) To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 07:45:11 +1000 Message-ID: <003f01d6264b$1ee11b00$5ca35100$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01D6269E.F08D2B00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGa2wf0f7rxs4k3grv+3ZsmDK/IcakW37hA Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01D6269E.F08D2B00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0041_01D6269E.F08D2B00" ------=_NextPart_001_0041_01D6269E.F08D2B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le Roux, Many thanks for the kind offer. No doubt someone = will take up the offer, but that set up does not fit a renesis. Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2020 5:32 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos =20 Neil, I think LeRoux just solved your problem! I would jump on that ASAP = as it is certainly worth the shipping charge from SA to OZ. That looks pretty much identical to what I've got. I don't have a = Renesis but I'm betting that making that manifold fit would be easier = than some of the other mods we've had to do on these projects. Possibly = your bigger issue that I can think of is the oil return. I'd forgotten = about this, but when I bought my turbo he also included the front cover = to connect to the oil return, as that has a port built in (otherwise = identical). But there again, I think it would be a small challenge to = modify your front cover for that purpose. I just took a quick look at = mine right now as it's right beside my beer fridge and computer so I = didn't have to go far (another wild Friday night in the shop) and I can = see several possibilities right away. Or you could swap front covers with LeRoux. Or you could do build a custom oil pan (as I just did for other = reasons) that has an oil return port. Either way, I would jump on this offer if I were in your shoes. Todd Bartrim C-FSTB RV9 13B Turbo Rotary Engine =20 =20 On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 11:55 PM Le Roux Breytenbach = breytenbachleroux@gmail.com = > = wrote: Neil / Jeff : Thanks for the photos of your set ups and installations It is very inspiring for me, as there is no one with 13B or Renesis = aircraft projects around in South -Africa. I must drain the groups = =E2=80=9Cintellectual capital around installations=E2=80=9D The turbo =E2=80=93 I have a complete RX 7 turbo and manifold with = wastegate etc. Which I stripped from my imported (Japan) 13B turbo. If anybody is interested, it for free and, you must just pay the = shipping cost. Do not think I will ever need it, as I have already p = ported my housings and only need 160 Hp for the Vision Ex. Thanks Le Roux =20 = IMG_0746.JPG =20 = IMG_0747.JPG =20 = IMG_0748.JPG =20 = IMG_0745.JPG =20 =20 =20 On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 12:25 AM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Dave and contributors, Spent yesterday finally = getting specific answers that I should have had 12 months ago. The guru = that I sent the stock turbo to in the end had no idea as to an upgrade = for temp in the hot section. The up grade that Dave suggested is = approx. $900 USD. Real problem at the moment is the exchange rate with = all the bank charges, the great Ozzie dollar is approx. half. Then = freight---- I see freight on a turbo from the US at up to $800 Oz = dollars!! Then internal freight in OZ, plus labour costs --- I will = have to sell 2 kidneys! Then considering I do not have a stock RX7 manifold to = bolt the turbo to =E2=80=93 I am manufacturing an adaption of the stock = Renesis manifold, so whatever turbo I get it means work to make it fit = and I am =C2=BE down that path. So having already having a = =E2=80=9Cdummy spit=E2=80=9D due to 12 months lost, I lauch out to find = a new turbo in OZ. I find that Garret and others have a hot section = wheel that will stand 1050 degrees C!! Wow that fixes anything that the = rotary puts out with no phone calls involved trying to explain. Once = again I make the usual; mistake telling the company with all these shiny = new turbos that I want it for a drone!! Thought that would by pass the = usual arguments---- silly boy, NO they do not supply for aeronautical = applications!! So I am back to =E2=80=9Cdune buggy=E2=80=9D even though = the nearest beach is 300 miles away. Seems the turbo I require is the = smallest they make. Price is yet to enter the discussion. Will update as I get abused. I am asked continually for = Make, Model, Vin Number, year of manufacturer! All I want is a turbo! Thanks to all, Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 11:17 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos =20 Hi Neil, It all depends on how you size and operate your turbo. In general, the pressure relief, or pop-off valve is not needed in = aircraft. Those come more into play during the fast throttle closures = that occur in highly boosted race cars during shifting. They spend = almost all of their time closed. These valves are not intended to be = the primary pressure regulation and would not function well in such a = capacity. They only limit peak pressure but do not do so with a high = level of accuracy or control ability. They would also be highly = inefficient if used in this manner, as the turbo would be producing = continuously higher back pressure than needed. The turbo would be short = lived and your fuel consumption would suffer greatly. =20 The wastegate issue is a much bigger question but the short answer is = that yes, you probably want/need one. The only exception might be a = large turbine turbo that is sized so big that the max boost was only = achieved at WOT operating conditions. Even then, you would be limiting = the usefulness of your turbo at altitude because if it were sized for = WOT at sea level, it would not be very useful at altitude. If sized for = WOT at altitude you could use throttle to control boost down low, but = you always run the risk of overboost. Similarly, a fixed exhaust bypass = would allow a smaller turbo to be used in the same manner but with less = efficiency and shorter life. I have experimented with my turbo in this = configuration. By removing the flapper valve from my wastegate and = creating a fixed bypass I was able to run at WOT and have approximately = the boost I wanted, but only at a very specific altitude. Any higher = and boost drops off precepitously. Any lower and throttle is needed to = control boost. There is not much of a sweet spot as the natural = variations in conditions created a oscillating situation that is simply = not tolerable. But for maximum benefit from your turbo, longest life = and efficiency there is no substitute for a wastegate of some sort. =20 Dave Leonard N4VY, Turbo Rotary RV-6 =20 On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:47 PM 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Can anyone help me with the following? With a turbo, can I just use a = pressure relief valve and negate the wastegate totally?? Looking for = simplicity and weight saving. Neil. ------=_NextPart_001_0041_01D6269E.F08D2B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Le Roux,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Many = thanks for the kind offer.=C2=A0 No doubt someone will take up the = offer, but that set up does not fit a renesis.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Neil.

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, May 9, = 2020 5:32 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Turbos

 

Neil, I = think LeRoux just solved your problem! I would jump on that ASAP as it = is certainly worth the shipping charge from SA to = OZ.

  That looks = pretty much identical to what I've got. I don't have a Renesis = but I'm betting that making that manifold fit would be easier than some = of the other mods we've had to do on these projects. Possibly your = bigger issue that I can think of is the oil return. I'd forgotten about = this, but when I bought my turbo he also included the front cover to = connect to the oil return, as that has a port built in (otherwise = identical). But there again, I think it would be a small challenge to = modify your front cover for that purpose. I just took a quick look = at mine right now as it's right beside my beer fridge and computer so I = didn't have to go far (another wild Friday night in the shop) and I = can see several possibilities right = away.

   Or you = could swap front covers with LeRoux.

  Or you could do build a custom oil pan (as I = just did for other reasons) that has an oil return = port.

Either way, I would = jump on this offer if I were in your shoes.


Todd Bartrim

C-FSTB

RV9

13B = Turbo Rotary Engine

 

 

On = Fri, May 8, 2020 at 11:55 PM Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Neil / Jeff : Thanks for = the photos of your set ups and installations

It is = very inspiring for me, as there is no one with 13B or Renesis aircraft = projects around in South -Africa. I must drain the groups = =E2=80=9Cintellectual capital around = installations=E2=80=9D

The turbo =E2=80=93 I = have a complete RX 7 turbo and manifold with wastegate etc. Which I = stripped from my imported (Japan) 13B turbo.

If = anybody is interested, it for free and, you must just pay the shipping = cost. Do not think I will ever need it, as I have already p ported my = housings and only need 160 Hp for the Vision Ex.

Thanks = Le Roux

 

 

<= a = href=3D"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mLnK9GkzBWrbzdGMvA5y1W063v6ExfBa= /view?usp=3Ddrive_web" target=3D"_blank">3D"Image IMG_0747.JPG

 

<= a = href=3D"https://drive.google.com/file/d/19FCwXK7uthiDlQHTRhnI7v1TTD2RUlDU= /view?usp=3Ddrive_web" target=3D"_blank">3D"Image IMG_0748.JPG

 

<= a = href=3D"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HfinKgQ6rf_OcCZctGGo6SvFaZsrDyQX= /view?usp=3Ddrive_web" target=3D"_blank">3D"Image IMG_0745.JPG

 

 

 

On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 12:25 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Dave and contributors,

          =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;        Spent yesterday finally = getting specific answers that I should have had 12 months ago.  The = guru that I sent the stock turbo to in the end had no idea as to an = upgrade for temp in the hot section.  The up grade that Dave = suggested is approx. $900 USD.  Real problem at the moment is the = exchange rate with all the bank charges,  the great Ozzie dollar is = approx. half.  Then freight----  I see freight on a turbo from = the US at up to $800 Oz dollars!!   Then internal freight in = OZ, plus labour costs  ---  I will have to sell 2 = kidneys!

          =       Then considering I do not have a stock = RX7 manifold to bolt the turbo to =E2=80=93 I am manufacturing an = adaption of the stock Renesis  manifold, so whatever turbo I get it = means work to make it fit and I am =C2=BE down that path.  So = having already having a =E2=80=9Cdummy spit=E2=80=9D due to 12 months = lost, I lauch out to find a new turbo in OZ.  I find that Garret = and others have a hot section wheel that will stand 1050 degrees = C!!  Wow that fixes anything that the rotary puts out with no phone = calls involved trying to explain.    Once again I make = the usual; mistake telling the company with all these shiny new turbos = that I want it for a drone!!  Thought that would by pass the usual = arguments---- silly boy, NO they do not supply for aeronautical = applications!!  So I am back to =E2=80=9Cdune buggy=E2=80=9D even = though the nearest beach is 300 miles away.  Seems the turbo I = require is the smallest they make.  Price is yet to enter the = discussion.

          =       Will update as I get abused.  I am = asked continually for Make, Model, Vin Number, year of = manufacturer!  All I want is a turbo!

Thanks to all,

Neil.

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Friday, May 8, 2020 11:17 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos

 <= /o:p>

Hi = Neil,

It all = depends on how you size and operate your turbo.

In general, = the pressure relief, or pop-off valve is not needed in aircraft.  = Those come more into play during the fast throttle closures that occur = in highly boosted race cars during shifting.  They spend almost all = of their time closed.  These valves are not intended to be the = primary pressure regulation and would not function well in such a = capacity. They only limit peak pressure but do not do so with a high = level of accuracy or control ability.  They would also be highly = inefficient if used in this manner, as the turbo would be producing = continuously higher back pressure than needed.  The turbo = would be short lived and your fuel consumption would suffer = greatly.

 <= /o:p>

The = wastegate issue is a much bigger question but the short answer is that = yes, you probably want/need one.  The only exception might be a = large turbine turbo that is sized so big that the max boost was only = achieved at WOT operating conditions.  Even then, you would be = limiting the usefulness of your turbo at altitude because if it were = sized for WOT at sea level, it would not be very useful at = altitude.  If sized for WOT at altitude you could use throttle to = control boost down low, but you always run the risk of overboost.  = Similarly, a fixed exhaust bypass would allow a smaller turbo to be used = in the same manner but with less efficiency and shorter life.  I = have experimented with my turbo in this configuration.  By removing = the flapper valve from my wastegate and creating a fixed bypass I was = able to run at WOT and have approximately the boost I wanted, but only = at a very specific altitude.  Any higher and boost drops off = precepitously.  Any lower and throttle is needed to control = boost.  There is not much of a sweet spot as the natural variations = in conditions created a oscillating situation that is simply not = tolerable.  But for maximum benefit from your turbo, longest life = and efficiency there is no substitute for a wastegate of some = sort.

 <= /o:p>

Dave = Leonard

N4VY, Turbo = Rotary RV-6

 <= /o:p>

On Thu, May = 7, 2020 at 2:47 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Can anyone help me with the following?    = With a turbo, can I just use a pressure relief valve and negate the = wastegate totally??    Looking for simplicity and weight = saving.   = Neil.

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