X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NYOYKFL4 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=M/0rG+zD05S3idq3/PIGCQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=UE2mGxN3AAAA:20 a=VcB5FXVVAAAA:20 a=GLeGduIwAAAA:20 a=Y9VTYf-DAAAA:20 a=48N1Szc06d9lhS453psA:9 a=q1NnZBINQXZscXQU:21 a=QBV3df0Tfh9PQvtE:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=IoeQSOh0AAAA:8 a=BNFBz-y2x4lWte9m1mgA:9 a=H6BOU1bHeIPCaQIl:21 a=YW0L8W4u3WA0jx8Q:21 a=-e-yoSZxYmqALHF1:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ot1-f42.google.com ([209.85.210.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 224068 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 09 May 2020 03:32:36 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.42; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-ot1-f42.google.com with SMTP id c3so3375404otp.8 for ; Sat, 09 May 2020 00:32:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=eS/q/ZDgMt2FthhECdwUuymTZ2Z1UCEskvb59p6QMOs=; b=gFlovIu0UAwIhRpYJWCRHkRpm6NIO/d+MLbeTktxh58eGNHbuLC4ta4kXXXtz4CrTx E9pN06O2Yv6B3g6hPdI2wQcB/3gt+QgMIkYlqZdY3p21cjP1DM1eXMCJTYiHYgDmaxtc lMv7tZwID3ZjDDmWK3uiJYnC4aEnOaOGf36IkhNPdpZS+yaiI3HEMSKilgDMCz7gcwWc HdRU3e8hXrp7n1oO42o1HvgF2zmhXWWHomDXov1/d/JAjPis8uGcIaeGlQ1QcYR49BOr Pf5JzwHfe/qeZN+wNkZA4JAYariI+/2NbHvZoAtbsDBN5YsVNNHzzjpbTaDrXmdYbTdc mVjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=eS/q/ZDgMt2FthhECdwUuymTZ2Z1UCEskvb59p6QMOs=; b=cuDHJwnTfYh7ELj6Zv5SO6kiPq3rQ/BNpe+6A/mVicma3ZgPQvD3Qyfl3RmaWAS1pj svMeDzSE+uDia85PySy3wIa3ZNlxSbfAgJ9Pehk/A9GWetwy0wC0vALy7NSNEO/ANTc3 d8zB6k0mkoKCw+g3ATE4fts3j82DAMLe7E+I/0iOkITg3FikFRh6WDxtKI7BDVTQWIiB 3XbWqlggD8Wykh+JNPKGD7y2AWgltvj6P/12w32j2ocXZECiw5dyKTrnY4c31L/PMgk6 SyZGxGRGBNTZIG07q1h/gKmdbI2XkUZZN9+oXHZlYzRCcII2f3yh6FPjvcjGhF9OqMk6 MqgA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZNVCbjiFoT/vMnfEvHglPVQLkO7KC+dGvxrNLu38sMUH8lqge5 /uoxbmK+Aw+T6dvscaRVnYNCBAA/W371Y1Ijl/F6TtM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL3yXjkGDaRvFzyh5KsVm2H5ayTtwFSBPxOh2/VVUhhK0kaVODfchE+jAor0aJGh2ZwMKmxhIFFTL/bq8INrJo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1302:: with SMTP id p2mr5212857otq.183.1589009540222; Sat, 09 May 2020 00:32:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 00:32:00 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000030911e05a5321df6" --00000000000030911e05a5321df6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neil, I think LeRoux just solved your problem! I would jump on that ASAP as it is certainly worth the shipping charge from SA to OZ. That looks pretty much identical to what I've got. I don't have a Renesis but I'm betting that making that manifold fit would be easier than some of the other mods we've had to do on these projects. Possibly your bigger issue that I can think of is the oil return. I'd forgotten about this, but when I bought my turbo he also included the front cover to connect to the oil return, as that has a port built in (otherwise identical). But there again, I think it would be a small challenge to modify your front cover for that purpose. I just took a quick look at mine right now as it's right beside my beer fridge and computer so I didn't have to go far (another wild Friday night in the shop) and I can see several possibilities right away. Or you could swap front covers with LeRoux. Or you could do build a custom oil pan (as I just did for other reasons) that has an oil return port. Either way, I would jump on this offer if I were in your shoes. Todd Bartrim C-FSTB RV9 13B Turbo Rotary Engine On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 11:55 PM Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: > Neil / Jeff : Thanks for the photos of your set ups and installations > > It is very inspiring for me, as there is no one with 13B or Renesis > aircraft projects around in South -Africa. I must drain the groups > =E2=80=9Cintellectual capital around installations=E2=80=9D > > The turbo =E2=80=93 I have a complete RX 7 turbo and manifold with wasteg= ate etc. > Which I stripped from my imported (Japan) 13B turbo. > > If anybody is interested, it for free and, you must just pay the shipping > cost. Do not think I will ever need it, as I have already p ported my > housings and only need 160 Hp for the Vision Ex. > > Thanks Le Roux > > IMG_0746.JPG > > > IMG_0747.JPG > > > IMG_0748.JPG > > > IMG_0745.JPG > > > > > On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 12:25 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Dave and contributors, >> >> Spent yesterday finally >> getting specific answers that I should have had 12 months ago. The guru >> that I sent the stock turbo to in the end had no idea as to an upgrade f= or >> temp in the hot section. The up grade that Dave suggested is approx. $9= 00 >> USD. Real problem at the moment is the exchange rate with all the bank >> charges, the great Ozzie dollar is approx. half. Then freight---- I s= ee >> freight on a turbo from the US at up to $800 Oz dollars!! Then interna= l >> freight in OZ, plus labour costs --- I will have to sell 2 kidneys! >> >> Then considering I do not have a stock RX7 manifold to >> bolt the turbo to =E2=80=93 I am manufacturing an adaption of the stock = Renesis >> manifold, so whatever turbo I get it means work to make it fit and I am= =C2=BE >> down that path. So having already having a =E2=80=9Cdummy spit=E2=80=9D= due to 12 months >> lost, I lauch out to find a new turbo in OZ. I find that Garret and oth= ers >> have a hot section wheel that will stand 1050 degrees C!! Wow that fixe= s >> anything that the rotary puts out with no phone calls involved trying to >> explain. Once again I make the usual; mistake telling the company wit= h >> all these shiny new turbos that I want it for a drone!! Thought that wo= uld >> by pass the usual arguments---- silly boy, NO they do not supply for >> aeronautical applications!! So I am back to =E2=80=9Cdune buggy=E2=80= =9D even though the >> nearest beach is 300 miles away. Seems the turbo I require is the small= est >> they make. Price is yet to enter the discussion. >> >> Will update as I get abused. I am asked continually for >> Make, Model, Vin Number, year of manufacturer! All I want is a turbo! >> >> Thanks to all, >> >> Neil. >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Friday, May 8, 2020 11:17 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos >> >> >> >> Hi Neil, >> >> It all depends on how you size and operate your turbo. >> >> In general, the pressure relief, or pop-off valve is not needed in >> aircraft. Those come more into play during the fast throttle closures t= hat >> occur in highly boosted race cars during shifting. They spend almost al= l >> of their time closed. These valves are not intended to be the primary >> pressure regulation and would not function well in such a capacity. They >> only limit peak pressure but do not do so with a high level of accuracy = or >> control ability. They would also be highly inefficient if used in this >> manner, as the turbo would be producing continuously higher back pressur= e >> than needed. The turbo would be short lived and your fuel consumption >> would suffer greatly. >> >> >> >> The wastegate issue is a much bigger question but the short answer is >> that yes, you probably want/need one. The only exception might be a lar= ge >> turbine turbo that is sized so big that the max boost was only achieved = at >> WOT operating conditions. Even then, you would be limiting the usefulne= ss >> of your turbo at altitude because if it were sized for WOT at sea level,= it >> would not be very useful at altitude. If sized for WOT at altitude you >> could use throttle to control boost down low, but you always run the ris= k >> of overboost. Similarly, a fixed exhaust bypass would allow a smaller >> turbo to be used in the same manner but with less efficiency and shorter >> life. I have experimented with my turbo in this configuration. By >> removing the flapper valve from my wastegate and creating a fixed bypass= I >> was able to run at WOT and have approximately the boost I wanted, but on= ly >> at a very specific altitude. Any higher and boost drops off >> precepitously. Any lower and throttle is needed to control boost. Ther= e >> is not much of a sweet spot as the natural variations in conditions crea= ted >> a oscillating situation that is simply not tolerable. But for maximum >> benefit from your turbo, longest life and efficiency there is no substit= ute >> for a wastegate of some sort. >> >> >> >> Dave Leonard >> >> N4VY, Turbo Rotary RV-6 >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:47 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Can anyone help me with the following? With a turbo, can I just use a >> pressure relief valve and negate the wastegate totally?? Looking for >> simplicity and weight saving. Neil. >> >> --00000000000030911e05a5321df6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Neil, I think LeRoux just solved your problem! I would jum= p on that ASAP as it is certainly worth the shipping charge from SA to OZ.<= div>=C2=A0 That looks pretty=C2=A0much identical=C2=A0to what I've got.= I don't have a Renesis but I'm betting that making that manifold f= it would be easier than some of the other mods we've had to do on these= projects. Possibly your bigger issue that I can think of is the oil return= . I'd forgotten about this, but when I bought my turbo he also included= the front cover to connect to the oil return, as that has a port built in = (otherwise identical). But there again, I think it would be a small challen= ge to modify your front cover for that purpose. I just took a=C2=A0quick lo= ok at mine right now as it's right beside my beer fridge and computer s= o I didn't=C2=A0have to go far (another wild Friday night in the shop) = and I can see several possibilities=C2=A0right away.
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Or you could swap front covers with LeRoux.
=C2=A0 Or you coul= d do build a custom oil pan (as I just did for other reasons) that has an o= il return port.
Either way, I would jump on this offer if I were = in your shoes.

Todd Ba= rtrim
C-FSTB
RV9
13B Turbo Rotary Engine


On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 11:55 PM Le Roux Breytenbach = breytenbachleroux@gmail.com<= /a> <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net> wrote:

Neil / Jeff= : Thanks for the photos of your set ups and installations

It is very inspiring for me, as the= re is no one with 13B or Renesis aircraft projects around in South -Africa. I must drain the groups =E2=80= =9Cintellectual capital around installations=E2=80=9D

The turbo =E2=80=93 I have a comple= te RX 7 turbo and manifold with wastegate etc. Which I stripped from my imported (Japan) 13B turbo.

If anybody is interested, it for fr= ee and, you must just pay the shipping cost. Do not think I will ever need it, as I have already p po= rted my housings and only need 160 Hp for the Vision Ex.

Thanks Le Roux


=C2=A0IMG_0746.JP= G

=C2=A0IMG_0747.JPG

<= div class=3D"gmail_chip gmail_drive_chip" style=3D"width:396px;height:18px;= max-height:18px;background-color:rgb(245,245,245);padding:5px;color:rgb(34,= 34,34);font-family:arial;font-style:normal;font-weight:bold;font-size:13px;= border:1px solid rgb(221,221,221);line-height:1">=C2= =A0IMG_0748.JPG

=C2=A0IMG= _0745.JPG

=C2= =A0


On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 12:25 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wr= ote:

Dave and contri= butors,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Spent yesterday finally getting specific ans= wers that I should have had 12 months ago.=C2=A0 The guru that I sent the s= tock turbo to in the end had no idea as to an upgrade for temp in the hot s= ection.=C2=A0 The up grade that Dave suggested is approx. $900 USD.=C2=A0 R= eal problem at the moment is the exchange rate with all the bank charges,= =C2=A0 the great Ozzie dollar is approx. half.=C2=A0 Then freight----=C2=A0= I see freight on a turbo from the US at up to $800 Oz dollars!!=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Then internal freight in OZ, plus labour costs=C2=A0 ---=C2=A0 I will h= ave to sell 2 kidneys!

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then considering I do not have a stock RX= 7 manifold to bolt the turbo to =E2=80=93 I am manufacturing an adaption of= the stock Renesis =C2=A0manifold, so whatever turbo I get it means work to= make it fit and I am =C2=BE down that path.=C2=A0 So having already having= a =E2=80=9Cdummy spit=E2=80=9D due to 12 months lost, I lauch out to find = a new turbo in OZ.=C2=A0 I find that Garret and others have a hot section w= heel that will stand 1050 degrees C!!=C2=A0 Wow that fixes anything that th= e rotary puts out with no phone calls involved trying to explain.=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 Once again I make the usual; mistake telling the company with all= these shiny new turbos that I want it for a drone!!=C2=A0 Thought that wou= ld by pass the usual arguments---- silly boy, NO they do not supply for aer= onautical applications!!=C2=A0 So I am back to =E2=80=9Cdune buggy=E2=80=9D= even though the nearest beach is 300 miles away.=C2=A0 Seems the turbo I r= equire is the smallest they make.=C2=A0 Price is yet to enter the discussio= n.

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Will update as I get abused.=C2=A0 I am asked continually for = Make, Model, Vin Number, year of manufacturer!=C2=A0 All I want is a turbo!=

Thanks= to all,

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@= lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 11:17 PM
= To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Su= bject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos

=C2=A0

Hi Neil,=

It all depends on how you size and oper= ate your turbo.

In general, th= e pressure relief, or pop-off valve is not needed in aircraft.=C2=A0 Those = come more into play during the fast throttle closures that occur in highly = boosted race cars during shifting.=C2=A0 They spend almost all of their tim= e closed.=C2=A0 These valves are not intended to be the primary pressure re= gulation and would not function well in such a capacity. They only limit pe= ak pressure but do not do so with a high level of accuracy or control abili= ty.=C2=A0 They would also be highly inefficient if used in this manner, as = the turbo would be producing continuously=C2=A0higher back pressure than ne= eded.=C2=A0 The turbo would be short lived and your fuel consumption would = suffer greatly.

=C2=A0

The wastegate issue= is a much bigger question but the short answer is that yes, you probably w= ant/need one.=C2=A0 The only exception might be a large turbine turbo that = is sized so big that the max boost was only achieved at WOT operating condi= tions.=C2=A0 Even then, you would be limiting the usefulness of your turbo = at altitude because if it were sized for WOT at sea level, it would not be = very useful at altitude.=C2=A0 If sized for WOT at altitude you could use t= hrottle to control boost down low, but you always run the risk of overboost= .=C2=A0 Similarly, a fixed exhaust bypass would allow a smaller turbo to be= used in the same manner but with less efficiency and shorter life.=C2=A0 I= have experimented with my turbo in this configuration.=C2=A0 By removing t= he flapper valve from my wastegate and creating a fixed bypass I was able t= o run at WOT and have approximately the boost I wanted, but only at a very = specific altitude.=C2=A0 Any higher and boost drops off precepitously.=C2= =A0 Any lower and throttle is needed to control boost.=C2=A0 There is not m= uch of a sweet spot as the natural variations in conditions created a oscil= lating=C2=A0situation that is simply not tolerable.=C2=A0 But for maximum b= enefit from your turbo, longest life and efficiency there is no substitute = for a wastegate of some sort.

=C2=A0

Dave Leonar= d

N4VY, Turbo Rotary RV-= 6

=C2=A0<= /p>

On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:47 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <= ;flyrotary= @lancaironline.net> wrote:

Can anyone help= me with the following?=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 With a turbo, can I just use a pr= essure relief valve and negate the wastegate totally??=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0Lo= oking for simplicity and weight saving.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Neil.<= /u>

--00000000000030911e05a5321df6--