X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NYOYKFL4 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=vbIkHhqS5jS7WHLnt3oMUQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=DDNF8ybvv5wA:10 a=sTwFKg_x9MkA:10 a=UE2mGxN3AAAA:20 a=VcB5FXVVAAAA:20 a=GLeGduIwAAAA:20 a=Y9VTYf-DAAAA:20 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=SdjWy6DOwgprmCpL2zMA:9 a=prbp1CYJdItxI_rC:21 a=VHfLROAO3BYWBExX:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=IoeQSOh0AAAA:8 a=mk7VXibN28SuYK975FUA:9 a=MmZXmi0iWMZJFdv7:21 a=h07H6i5nPf5fCxc0:21 a=u3x2GYZwAvqFWzP-:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-qv1-f49.google.com ([209.85.219.49] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 224045 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 09 May 2020 02:55:34 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.219.49; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-qv1-f49.google.com with SMTP id ck5so1992385qvb.11 for ; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:55:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Ln/gkys+MGpBCy9I/6FCkdTfPPEXBNybcZUpEf3hpqc=; b=BNSCF7F/NOcaEz1ysYoaDm1ZmJaP+DVRnKa7lihRrjZjUkK4wZmsDaR1NnqSpwsnlp Ls10xFaBwKPWzPHiLsnLopIEUY6JDfKcBeLdx05h07J2QTH+qeB97HH40bQ4UO4WoSRs jwcltscyCEnlLxxJQFIW7iza6UupOZElCmDrkk/OL4s7EZan/xTDNUttKofGg3SRs4RN eOrm1R4awmsldlsSvqF9iH0qzBkxt/qPAD8VIdKcFI+P8vO4eHLqYpjOp0G8eJIP0vlx lscs8TbrHEJkp6i/UOXmRH0MIh2TTkO1Y24dK/QUPqkPba1fxn+yyXE+nKJHBlDhPKXG sD8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Ln/gkys+MGpBCy9I/6FCkdTfPPEXBNybcZUpEf3hpqc=; b=IsQWYonw2Q7upwMSUz6qV/UJ29h2O2sWI6+z/+Rz+nY6KsQbKWafSMWWbGAOPNJUw7 guzTOo7AHbV5ntZ0xGDthu0oynsV0Ald6Twy286xgF0fD7HPTasxamqzolmoMsrTQoFl EuHJonvNLCT7E+iuITeIarYY9cAdoCK9edlypeLjd/oBwnTnGB6CagKI2hx1mD0jv9VM nx73rXec4Qdq8ADEpixMFslHD6oi9L7g7jdesw+Fhb0NTZ3Zc0Hp60dwQNjlveQ4MrCB /PelcCA/dsUBIspTRK8mYGQpEjOPvAZx7XHfPNXOZif6EkSr7TOWBVR9lu93Y8MgNeoN v8/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaJCytgwiJ+wZ2f4LE9J6uEM3hKNpaVLIpmLFjl03BEPvjz41pp sRcLPofp19FcqW/S5tvWGo4VirBuQ1usON7JhO9+Bo6JBXk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKO3jJdL2Y/eqNbPOtmJNbbia3e+bKgP764h6yfDKoqRClLwT0qPTMbfsHhwpyJVibF+WcNzENV5YTckt91els= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4789:: with SMTP id z9mr2409425qvy.57.1589007319167; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:55:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 08:55:07 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cdf7fe05a531989d" --000000000000cdf7fe05a531989d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neil / Jeff : Thanks for the photos of your set ups and installations It is very inspiring for me, as there is no one with 13B or Renesis aircraft projects around in South -Africa. I must drain the groups =E2=80=9Cintellectual capital around installations=E2=80=9D The turbo =E2=80=93 I have a complete RX 7 turbo and manifold with wastegat= e etc. Which I stripped from my imported (Japan) 13B turbo. If anybody is interested, it for free and, you must just pay the shipping cost. Do not think I will ever need it, as I have already p ported my housings and only need 160 Hp for the Vision Ex. Thanks Le Roux IMG_0746.JPG IMG_0747.JPG IMG_0748.JPG IMG_0745.JPG On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 12:25 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Dave and contributors, > > Spent yesterday finally gettin= g > specific answers that I should have had 12 months ago. The guru that I > sent the stock turbo to in the end had no idea as to an upgrade for temp = in > the hot section. The up grade that Dave suggested is approx. $900 USD. > Real problem at the moment is the exchange rate with all the bank charges= , > the great Ozzie dollar is approx. half. Then freight---- I see freight = on > a turbo from the US at up to $800 Oz dollars!! Then internal freight in > OZ, plus labour costs --- I will have to sell 2 kidneys! > > Then considering I do not have a stock RX7 manifold to > bolt the turbo to =E2=80=93 I am manufacturing an adaption of the stock R= enesis > manifold, so whatever turbo I get it means work to make it fit and I am = =C2=BE > down that path. So having already having a =E2=80=9Cdummy spit=E2=80=9D = due to 12 months > lost, I lauch out to find a new turbo in OZ. I find that Garret and othe= rs > have a hot section wheel that will stand 1050 degrees C!! Wow that fixes > anything that the rotary puts out with no phone calls involved trying to > explain. Once again I make the usual; mistake telling the company with > all these shiny new turbos that I want it for a drone!! Thought that wou= ld > by pass the usual arguments---- silly boy, NO they do not supply for > aeronautical applications!! So I am back to =E2=80=9Cdune buggy=E2=80=9D= even though the > nearest beach is 300 miles away. Seems the turbo I require is the smalle= st > they make. Price is yet to enter the discussion. > > Will update as I get abused. I am asked continually for > Make, Model, Vin Number, year of manufacturer! All I want is a turbo! > > Thanks to all, > > Neil. > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, May 8, 2020 11:17 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos > > > > Hi Neil, > > It all depends on how you size and operate your turbo. > > In general, the pressure relief, or pop-off valve is not needed in > aircraft. Those come more into play during the fast throttle closures th= at > occur in highly boosted race cars during shifting. They spend almost all > of their time closed. These valves are not intended to be the primary > pressure regulation and would not function well in such a capacity. They > only limit peak pressure but do not do so with a high level of accuracy o= r > control ability. They would also be highly inefficient if used in this > manner, as the turbo would be producing continuously higher back pressure > than needed. The turbo would be short lived and your fuel consumption > would suffer greatly. > > > > The wastegate issue is a much bigger question but the short answer is tha= t > yes, you probably want/need one. The only exception might be a large > turbine turbo that is sized so big that the max boost was only achieved a= t > WOT operating conditions. Even then, you would be limiting the usefulnes= s > of your turbo at altitude because if it were sized for WOT at sea level, = it > would not be very useful at altitude. If sized for WOT at altitude you > could use throttle to control boost down low, but you always run the risk > of overboost. Similarly, a fixed exhaust bypass would allow a smaller > turbo to be used in the same manner but with less efficiency and shorter > life. I have experimented with my turbo in this configuration. By > removing the flapper valve from my wastegate and creating a fixed bypass = I > was able to run at WOT and have approximately the boost I wanted, but onl= y > at a very specific altitude. Any higher and boost drops off > precepitously. Any lower and throttle is needed to control boost. There > is not much of a sweet spot as the natural variations in conditions creat= ed > a oscillating situation that is simply not tolerable. But for maximum > benefit from your turbo, longest life and efficiency there is no substitu= te > for a wastegate of some sort. > > > > Dave Leonard > > N4VY, Turbo Rotary RV-6 > > > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:47 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > Can anyone help me with the following? With a turbo, can I just use a > pressure relief valve and negate the wastegate totally?? Looking for > simplicity and weight saving. Neil. > > --000000000000cdf7fe05a531989d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Neil / Jeff : Than= ks for the photos of your set ups and installations

It is very inspiring for me, as the= re is no one with 13B or Renesis aircraft projects around in South -Africa. I must drain the groups =E2=80= =9Cintellectual capital around installations=E2=80=9D

The turbo =E2=80=93 I have a comple= te RX 7 turbo and manifold with wastegate etc. Which I stripped from my imported (Japan) 13B turbo.

If anybody is interested, it for fr= ee and, you must just pay the shipping cost. Do not think I will ever need it, as I have already p po= rted my housings and only need 160 Hp for the Vision Ex.

Thanks Le Roux


=C2=A0IMG_0746.JPG

=C2=A0IMG_0747.JPG

=C2=A0IMG_0748.JPG
=C2=A0IMG_0745.JPG<= /span>

=C2=A0


On Sa= t, May 9, 2020 at 12:25 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave and contributors,=

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Spent yesterday finally getting specific answers that I sho= uld have had 12 months ago.=C2=A0 The guru that I sent the stock turbo to i= n the end had no idea as to an upgrade for temp in the hot section.=C2=A0 T= he up grade that Dave suggested is approx. $900 USD.=C2=A0 Real problem at = the moment is the exchange rate with all the bank charges,=C2=A0 the great = Ozzie dollar is approx. half.=C2=A0 Then freight----=C2=A0 I see freight on= a turbo from the US at up to $800 Oz dollars!!=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then internal f= reight in OZ, plus labour costs=C2=A0 ---=C2=A0 I will have to sell 2 kidne= ys!

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Then considering I do not have a stock RX7 manifold to bolt th= e turbo to =E2=80=93 I am manufacturing an adaption of the stock Renesis = =C2=A0manifold, so whatever turbo I get it means work to make it fit and I = am =C2=BE down that path.=C2=A0 So having already having a =E2=80=9Cdummy s= pit=E2=80=9D due to 12 months lost, I lauch out to find a new turbo in OZ.= =C2=A0 I find that Garret and others have a hot section wheel that will sta= nd 1050 degrees C!!=C2=A0 Wow that fixes anything that the rotary puts out = with no phone calls involved trying to explain.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Once agai= n I make the usual; mistake telling the company with all these shiny new tu= rbos that I want it for a drone!!=C2=A0 Thought that would by pass the usua= l arguments---- silly boy, NO they do not supply for aeronautical applicati= ons!!=C2=A0 So I am back to =E2=80=9Cdune buggy=E2=80=9D even though the ne= arest beach is 300 miles away.=C2=A0 Seems the turbo I require is the small= est they make.=C2=A0 Price is yet to enter the discussion.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Will = update as I get abused.=C2=A0 I am asked continually for Make, Model, Vin N= umber, year of manufacturer!=C2=A0 All I want is a turbo!

Thanks to all,=

Neil.<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 11:17 PM
To: Rotary= motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRo= tary] Re: Turbos

=C2= =A0

Hi Neil,

It all depends on how you size and operate your turbo.=

In general, the pressure reli= ef, or pop-off valve is not needed in aircraft.=C2=A0 Those come more into = play during the fast throttle closures that occur in highly boosted race ca= rs during shifting.=C2=A0 They spend almost all of their time closed.=C2=A0= These valves are not intended to be the primary pressure regulation and wo= uld not function well in such a capacity. They only limit peak pressure but= do not do so with a high level of accuracy or control ability.=C2=A0 They = would also be highly inefficient if used in this manner, as the turbo would= be producing continuously=C2=A0higher back pressure than needed.=C2=A0 The= turbo would be short lived and your fuel consumption would suffer greatly.=

=C2=A0<= /u>

The wastegate issue is a much bigg= er question but the short answer is that yes, you probably want/need one.= =C2=A0 The only exception might be a large turbine turbo that is sized so b= ig that the max boost was only achieved at WOT operating conditions.=C2=A0 = Even then, you would be limiting the usefulness of your turbo at altitude b= ecause if it were sized for WOT at sea level, it would not be very useful a= t altitude.=C2=A0 If sized for WOT at altitude you could use throttle to co= ntrol boost down low, but you always run the risk of overboost.=C2=A0 Simil= arly, a fixed exhaust bypass would allow a smaller turbo to be used in the = same manner but with less efficiency and shorter life.=C2=A0 I have experim= ented with my turbo in this configuration.=C2=A0 By removing the flapper va= lve from my wastegate and creating a fixed bypass I was able to run at WOT = and have approximately the boost I wanted, but only at a very specific alti= tude.=C2=A0 Any higher and boost drops off precepitously.=C2=A0 Any lower a= nd throttle is needed to control boost.=C2=A0 There is not much of a sweet = spot as the natural variations in conditions created a oscillating=C2=A0sit= uation that is simply not tolerable.=C2=A0 But for maximum benefit from you= r turbo, longest life and efficiency there is no substitute for a wastegate= of some sort.

= =C2=A0

Dave Leonard

N4VY, Turbo Rotary RV-6

=C2=A0

=

On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:47 PM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline= .net> wrote:

Can anyone help me with the fo= llowing?=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 With a turbo, can I just use a pressure relief v= alve and negate the wastegate totally??=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0Looking for simpl= icity and weight saving.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Neil.

--000000000000cdf7fe05a531989d--