X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Cs7BjUwD c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=kdGfU+lv7xr5jxdcg3m1Bw==:117 a=i91fMLw7X4Zc5kXQnxUfFQ==:17 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=JRJjVVG6KmqEUvjYU3IA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=KJFYFJxGBmYA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=p8O8TdRuQKCtGKbfKhQA:9 a=lDNl2lIEhZKvKMjIUR5gOGDH5rM=:19 a=zakRpYKXXT_XOtE-:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=pHzHmUro8NiASowvMSCR:22 a=xoEH_sTeL_Rfw54TyV31:22 From: "Nigel Baker nigel@limbachaustralia.com" Received: from mail-pf1-f172.google.com ([209.85.210.172] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.10) with ESMTPS id 12133742 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Jan 2019 09:57:58 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.172; envelope-from=nigel@limbachaustralia.com Received: by mail-pf1-f172.google.com with SMTP id 64so8898358pfr.9 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2019 06:57:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=limbachaustralia-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:thread-index :content-language; bh=Ly/rIQvucSTIR8rnTytjfsiOvdNDkqPXAkBnZ7O5krs=; b=gywoaJ/Gwalh7nOH0kHLQfW6abY+P5Krf/cE1C4jxoOKZ51VERkbZJdeuNiv3TSRBU ASeXQB8n0KRjqq6t4ewaMrW/8jwF5Ymzzn9QxDKPGlH4Mcld+YZHCfvP7GM9Zz1BJRnS L99sWjFytycl225D0A6G33zIcMIX6ybZupPAOgcoOdELn94TvKT1oeBxcWihQQEKzCPr 9AFvWJvFO7UHy2tUk0zPRXmqg81WnvlmnuCYwTXqR0TN1Fwa1l1hT4OlxEmkHwO2jPHB Q7v9XU3vkOtQTd/ahZleILeSy5ePcMtbahgJMz0A+kPXjKR+pOas7YUYr4FvCR6HIg2c kMsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=Ly/rIQvucSTIR8rnTytjfsiOvdNDkqPXAkBnZ7O5krs=; b=qogYP8efLruHdCxTLQ+TWpdunbnFJOfhRUgFv33KQzrbiIEiG/hzvdVgn2U24j6vth LpaypShkLFltRdnB2yxZJeK2d4N1ntu457zEGcabRoJveB8QkPnQ27EMVEeqtR/5fN5F fF2l0Rl9j5C4O0tqeNuS0UUirR/UFLbmSMTvlA9/NszhNX8WIESHeJ0/fRdW1f+Rfi3b uJCTffXLZ3BJEswcsY28Ub2ThJZhgNVbqGx7ul8UyV+s15mkCyL7YADNZ/Z0OKa3L/KX cAAHGtyuMU+fLupHEy9kXG0NqQ5neinFONVj6zP7SKA0LLphkNf5UPjbXCqIZkCXpabS iF+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfEq8NTPDwmDFgUzxNOIN6O13iXmCfMQihe/XiQxa7aCKO3V4wT ZKTZO25XHavQ1CT/1DKnJeMthVzpPbA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4VfLk9VwWyFSZcCwINA5jxG45L3WpS4sLow/2nFNcPy+Ivvl7oJkkM/+X/W/u/tjmohkHF7g== X-Received: by 2002:a62:3a04:: with SMTP id h4mr26333766pfa.119.1547996260265; Sun, 20 Jan 2019 06:57:40 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from DESKTOPBIV5TPI (bakerh5.lnk.telstra.net. [110.142.123.166]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h69sm13313716pge.4.2019.01.20.06.57.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Jan 2019 06:57:39 -0800 (PST) To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" , Subject: Please take my Dad, Thomas Phy off of this list. Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 01:27:37 +1030 Message-ID: <000001d4b0d0$7dfac6a0$79f053e0$@limbachaustralia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01D4B128.808B7BA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdSw0G5a00+qvUnvRjCzTSdF9b1qVA== Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01D4B128.808B7BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It=E2=80=99s a self-serve situation. Your Dad put himself on the list and can get off anytime he wants. Go to the source =E2=80=9CRotary motors in aircraft=E2=80=9D = flyrotary@lancaironline.net and = follow the navigation. Cheers. Nige. =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 1:18 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gearbox drain =20 Hello, =20 Please take my Dad, Thomas Phy maxfly55@gmail.com = , off of this and all email lists. =20 Thank You, =20 Liz Finch =20 On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 11:58 AM Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu = > wrote: Tracy and Neil, =20 I installed a -4 fitting at the top of both the -C drive and also the -A = drive that I converted to 3.17 to one ratio. At idle with oil at about = 50 degrees, a gauge connected to that top fitting read about 4 psi = inside the gearbox. With oil at about 180 degrees, the gauge read about = 2 psi. The 2 psi was unchanged when the engine rpm was increased to = 5000. Both gearboxes behaved the same. =20 I also installed a ball valve in the -6 drain line that I could close = immediately after shutting the engine off. Then I could disconnect the = drain line and collect the oil that was inside the gearbox. The = converted -A drive with a 3 pinion planetary contained 22 oz of oil = after shutdown while the -C drive with the 6 pinion planetary contained = 18 oz of oil. This was with the top fitting dead ended to the gauge and = not venting anything during operation. =20 The oil flow rate from the prop end of the gearbox was found to be about = 1/4 oz per minute while the total oil flow rate through the gearbox was = found to be about 90 oz per minute. This explains why installing = separate -6 drain lines to the engine did not change the behavior. = During the flow rate measurement, the oil draining from the gearbox just = after starting the engine had a lot of entrained air for a short time. =20 So the conclusion is that the gearboxes are completely filled with oil = during operation and any air initially inside them is entrained in the = oil and forced out the drain by the incoming oil. The gearbox = recommendations that I could find do not recommend running with the = components completely submerged due to the power consumed by churning = the oil and resultant generation of heat. Those sources also say that = if the gearbox is partially filled with oil but the level is too high, = the oil will foam and lubrication will be degraded if the system = circulates the oil using an external pump. In our case, it may be = better to accept the power loss and extra heat as opposed to returning a = lot of aerated oil to the engine. =20 An impeller was added to the planet carrier of the converted -A drive = but that gearbox still operated completely filled with oil. =20 The gearbox drain and the engine drain connection were increased to 1/2" = NPT and fittings drilled out to 21/32" ID were installed. 3/4" ID hose = was installed as the drain line. The drain line was close to level but = slightly down hill in operation. This reduced the gearbox internal = pressure to a value not measurable with a normal gauge. The amount of = oil inside the gearbox was measured by clamping off the drain hose = immediately after shutting down the engine, disconnecting the hose from = the engine, and then recovering the oil remaining inside the gearbox. = The gearbox was found to be completely filled with oil just as before. =20 When the -4 fitting in the top of the gearbox was connected to the = engine crankcase as a vent, the amount of oil recovered from the = gearbox after operation was now found to be about 5 to 6 oz. The = recovered oil did not appear to be foamed and its volume changed very = little upon standing for several hours. Steve Boese -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --=20 Thomas Phy President EAA Chapter 1345 Bend OR. =20 Classic Construction of Bend LLC CCB# 195733 541-306-1500 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01D4B128.808B7BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It=E2=80=99s a self-serve situation.

Your Dad put himself on the list and can get off = anytime he wants.

Go to the source = =E2=80=9CRotary motors in aircraft=E2=80=9D flyrotary@lancaironline.net and follow the navigation.

Cheers.

Nige.

 

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> =
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 1:18 AM
To: Rotary = motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = gearbox drain

 

Please take my Dad, Thomas Phy maxfly55@gmail.com, off of this = and all email lists.

 

Thank = You,

 

Liz = Finch

 

On = Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 11:58 AM Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Tracy and = Neil,

 

I installed a -4 fitting at = the top of both the -C drive and also the -A drive that I converted to = 3.17 to one ratio.  At idle with oil at about 50 degrees, a gauge = connected to that top fitting read about 4 psi inside the gearbox.  = With oil at about 180 degrees, the gauge read about 2 psi.  The 2 = psi was unchanged when the engine rpm was increased to 5000.  Both = gearboxes behaved the same.

 

I also installed a ball valve = in the -6 drain line that I could close immediately after shutting the = engine off.  Then I could disconnect the drain line and collect the = oil that was inside the gearbox.  The converted -A drive with a 3 = pinion planetary contained 22 oz of oil after shutdown while the -C = drive with the 6 pinion planetary contained 18 oz of oil.  This was = with the top fitting dead ended to the gauge and not venting anything = during operation.

 

The oil flow rate from the = prop end of the gearbox was found to be about 1/4 oz per minute while = the total oil flow rate through the gearbox was found to be about 90 oz = per minute.  This explains why installing separate -6 drain lines = to the engine did not change the behavior.  During the flow rate = measurement, the oil draining from the gearbox just after starting the = engine had a lot of entrained air for a short = time.

 

So the conclusion is that the = gearboxes are completely filled with oil during operation and any air = initially inside them is entrained in the oil and forced out the drain = by the incoming oil.   The gearbox recommendations that I could = find do not recommend running with the components completely submerged = due to the power consumed by churning the oil and resultant generation = of heat.  Those sources also say that if the gearbox is partially = filled with oil but the level is too high, the oil will foam and = lubrication will be degraded if the system circulates the oil using an = external pump.  In our case, it may be better to accept the power = loss and extra heat as opposed to returning a lot of aerated oil to the = engine.

 

An impeller was added to the = planet carrier of the converted -A drive but that gearbox still operated = completely filled with oil.

 

The gearbox drain and the = engine drain connection were increased to 1/2" NPT and fittings = drilled out to 21/32" ID were installed.  3/4" ID hose = was installed as the drain line.  The drain line was close to level = but slightly down hill in operation.  This reduced the gearbox = internal pressure to a value not measurable with a normal gauge.  = The amount of oil inside the gearbox was measured by clamping off the = drain hose immediately after shutting down the engine, disconnecting the = hose from the engine, and then recovering the oil remaining inside the = gearbox.  The gearbox was found to be completely filled with oil = just as before.

 

When the -4 fitting in the top = of the gearbox was connected to the engine crankcase as a vent, =  the amount of oil recovered from the gearbox after operation was = now found to be about 5 to 6 oz.  The recovered oil did not appear = to be foamed and its volume changed very little upon standing for = several hours.


Steve Boese

=

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml



--

Thomas Phy

President

EAA = Chapter 1345

Bend = OR.

 

Classic Construction of Bend = LLC

CCB# = 195733

541-306-1500

 

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