X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Tom Gillespie" Received: from nm17-vm1.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com ([98.139.213.55] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.3) with ESMTPS id 7783015 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 12:42:11 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.213.55; envelope-from=pseudowilly33@ymail.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ymail.com; s=s2048; t=1434991299; bh=GS6SM9P6tP3LoB6hhjhuoeZ6F8XbiEKBcXN88m8Ywy0=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=QzVODxz+P2HVT6m4Kq9hJAPakUb6Gm1xOsJc4tsYwFQ0+cG3ayCkOZk20FMLjwK9qpkUF6kTMBnTzawXPkwSz7wsA5fok7gyw3BXgjSZV8uBpMIGJY6PtDQUQl1Izfz6qUbX656S+lVKVMrD63J/Q5xhAgBqbiyVbTlrfNgsGdD64hMlnVWsJE35CeFN1bTbk/KqDQfNh1mceShPniyxM7a0kPeF0ZJxqC2EEHBgOKbB04KtzkV7b3pYatrgCWlCc1PROqWkMnk1YxFSzxvndhOPLmtQlZo6TiWI6Hqx50Th5Ew6MzdD5rdphJwpxmNwzZVyRnBdlXUw3GwheXcSNA== Received: from [98.139.170.180] by nm17.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2015 16:41:39 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.193] by tm23.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2015 16:41:39 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2015 16:41:39 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 99029.12181.bm@omp1002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: 2U2Rz40VM1llUHQ_46SMhSSHoF4cmE3he.a5J2X1V.TnWafneAdOftyJV9BpVg2 rD2HntlRVN7rTBa4eQxJX8mBKLYUJy1ofO7i5c.fLvcevHmcD1GGu1pvJTuzUpeUAsHPxPSboIQQ qWxAy4obCauAua7J4nOFIp0VUS5ly.7xAH3KphU6hzogeoqvnJUGCHZbG7KVq1dQZBXXkGE1yXYs SJ5CmwWD9OdArzPqdjxw6CIlR2k4xRVme_Ugf4rop7sHK2wAuqswDJXvbsVcdGeXSZb6EG2jAdgw DH1CUUtTzujNnCPh_6shivYA.cGgCLClNZhmdnnjdxaSw135A5.Y78pQSP8gYg_UP2wlFX515dVe zSaGtu4D8yKFyAdpQrNfU0twj2yke8q8bxg7iA3troMvlSXJNcDCUL9Th6XOKW7GBHdu8MTlDUVn 0JF19mXw4kyLCJLEZRbvMYkIEMdmcLPn7p6BoCfPxbEA8JCTllRnf0gp4FTFC4g168qQsB4NAojn N8i6PeFu5navCEb61gfVAKc2I8shnX7TzbjwD Received: by 66.196.80.115; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:41:38 +0000 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:41:38 +0000 (UTC) Reply-To: Tom Gillespie To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <1728699483.3954098.1434991298275.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: PERIPHERAL PORT INFO (Mark Steitle) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3954096_322235705.1434991298261" Content-Length: 20883 ------=_Part_3954096_322235705.1434991298261 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, thanks for the info. The way I was reading it, I thought it was a mount= ing plate that would bolt up to the Dynafocal mount like an adapter.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0I am aware of the the Cozy Girls mount and prolly will use it when I = get to that point.=C2=A0~~~tg~~~ From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 12:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PERIPHERAL PORT INFO (Mark Steitle) =20 Tom,=C2=A0 For a short time several years ago Mistral while they were tryin= g to certify their engines they sold a few completeengines and certain part= s (back-plates, intake systems, reduction drives, etc).........These engine= s and parts were=C2=A0experimental and could not be used in certified a/c..= ........I waited 2 years for Mistral to have enough sales to makea producti= on run of parts..........They preferred to sell complete engines (13B was $= 30,000.00+) at the time but ifyou had your order for individual parts in be= fore the production run they would add it to the run........The parts arebe= autifully done and the early back-plates (mount) could be adapted to the st= ock 86-95 13B with minimal machinework........ I did mine on my CCM (cheap = Chinese mill) and I would not make a pimple on a machinist's behind .......= =C2=A0=C2=A0The back-plate has a custom water-pump, alternator mount and a = pad for accessory drive (vacuum, fuel ,etc)........I purchased my plate wit= hout the internal drive gears (less expensive) as our rotary's are all elec= tric........ =C2=A0Now to address your question about your 20B...........They did build = a few 20B engines but as they edged closer=C2=A0to certifying their engines= they needed a paper trail for their parts production and since the early e= ngines still usedmany stock Mazda parts (rotors, rotor hsgs, eccentric shaf= ts,side hsgs, etc) they started producing more parts=C2=A0and in the proces= s changed many of the things about the stock parts (side housings in partic= ular) they did not=C2=A0need or worked better for their A/C engines........= ..I do not know all that they changed but the later production 13Band 20B b= ack-plate's will not bolt onto the stock front side plates unfortunately...= .....The early 20B engines that Ihave seen photos of used the early backpla= te ( just the bottom mount ears) and had two additional mounts at the=C2=A0= prop reduction drive making a "Bed" type mount..........The 20B's flying (b= esides Mistral's) that I am aware of all usea bed type mount of some kind..= ......Mark modified his Lancair's stock bed mount.........Tracy Crook and o= thers usea flat aluminum plate with mount cushion ears (4) at each corner..= .......The "Cozzygirrls" still make this plate and therectangular 4130 tube= mount that will bolt to the alum plate and can be used to weld up the rema= inder of the mountto fit your project........Long winded but I hope this is= of some help........Be glad to answer any other questions.......=C2=A0 Link to Cozygirrls......... =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.cozygirrrl.com/aircraf= tparts.htm Best Regards, =C2=A0Kelly TroyerDyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Tom Gillespie wrote: Interesting! I didn't know Mistrial had a mounting plate like that. Do you = have any pics or a =C2=A0source for one? I am in the same situation with a = 20B and the project I bought has a Dynafocal#1 mount.=C2=A0Thanks for any i= nfo.~~~tg~~~ From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 3:00 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PERIPHERAL PORT INFO (Mark Steitle) =20 Mark, =C2=A0 =C2=A0Glad you mentioned your use of the individual throttle body's = as I had forgotten that you replaced the slide throttle.......I presumethat= you used the two inch OD stainless intake tubes as called out by Paul Lama= r ?...........The 48 mm TB's are an almost perfectmatch for the intake tube= ID.........Did you use any "Devco" sealant in the water passage around the= intake tubes in addition to thered gasket sealant under the plates ?......= ...Also did you have any problem with TIG weld "Spatter" getting on the chr= ome surfaceof the rotor hsg and causing any damage ?......... =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have one of "MISTRAL's" mount plates which bolts up to a Lyc= "dynafocal" mount ring and solves the thorny Rotary Enginemount problem an= d will allow me to switch engines (hopefully) at some point........I am bui= lding a somewhat hybrid version of the13BREW with RB alum rear and center h= sgs (expensive 28 lb weight savings) ..........I am retaining the iron fron= t hsg (rear in my=C2=A0a/c) as the "MISTRAL" plate bolts up to it with seve= ral 6 mm bolts and I was not fond of the idea of =C2=A0my entire engine han= ging onthese bolts into aluminum threads.........I also have a TO4E Turbo o= n the bench just in case I get this done in this lifetime........<:) Thanks Again,Kelly Troyer =C2=A0 On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Mark Steitle = wrote: Kelly,=20 P-port 20b is working great.=C2=A0 It loves to rev. and produces noticeably= more HP at WOT than the side port motor did (verified by increase in TAS)= =C2=A0 I first tried the boring and welding process on a scrap housing and = didn't detect any warping or shrinkage, so I decided to go ahead and do it = to the good housings.=C2=A0 I think my "test housing" is the picture that P= L posts when he discusses welding the p-ports.=C2=A0 The sealing plates onl= y seal around the large inlet tubes and don't totally solve the problem of = sealant leakage. They could use a second o-ring, or gasket, between the sea= ling plate and the housing surface, IMHO.=C2=A0 There is the potential for = leakage where you bolt the plates to the housings.=C2=A0 I had some small b= ut persistent leaks around the small 1/4" dia. bolts.=C2=A0 I was finally a= ble to get those to seal by putting a small counter-sink where the bolt hea= d touches the plate and using an o-ring under the bolt head.=C2=A0 I used b= utton-head bolts.=C2=A0 This solved that problem.=C2=A0=20 You'll also have to figure out the intake.=C2=A0 Rumor has it that the thro= ttle plate needs to be as close to the port as possible for good idle chara= cteristics.=C2=A0 You could save weight by engineering the throttles into t= he housing, or do like I did and use three 1-bbl throttle bodies located as= close to the SS inlets as possible.=C2=A0 I found a set of three 48mm tb's= off a sea-doo for $100.=C2=A0 I chose these because they had injector boss= es cast right into the TB housing.=C2=A0 I had to machine a new throttle sh= aft to get the spacing right for the 3-rotor.=C2=A0 But they are working ou= t nicely. Thanks, Mark=C2=A0=20 On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Kelly Troyer = wrote: Mark, =C2=A0 =C2=A0Even though I am going to the Dark Side (IO-360) for expedienc= y for the timebeing I still want to use a Rotary eventually.........I am se= riously thinking about=C2=A0P porting my 13B and would like to know how you= r 20B is holding up particularly=C2=A0at your port insert junction using th= e machined plates and sealant.........Have you=C2=A0had any major problems = with leaks so far ?.........I have a pair of plates from Paulthat have the = "O" rings and if I recall correctly your plates were prior to the ones=C2= =A0with "O" rings..........I am curious whether you had any major problems = when youwere smoothing and putting the radius the "TIG" welds........On the= same questiondid the "TIG" welding seem to cause any warping of the rotor = hsg steel liner ?........=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks,=C2=A0Kelly Troyer =20 --=20 ------=_Part_3954096_322235705.1434991298261 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK, thanks for the info. The way I was reading = it, I thought it was a mounting plate that would bolt up to the Dynafocal m= ount like an adapter.
   I = am aware of the the Cozy Girls mount and prolly will use it when I get to t= hat point.
 ~~~tg~~~

From: Kelly Troyer <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net>
To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 12:15 PM=
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: PERIPHERAL PORT INFO (Mark Steitle)

Tom,
  For a short time several years= ago Mistral while they were trying to certify their engines they sold a fe= w complete
engines and cer= tain parts (back-plates, intake systems, reduction drives, etc).........The= se engines and parts were 
experimental and could not be used in certified a/c..........I waited= 2 years for Mistral to have enough sales to make
a production run of parts..........They preferred t= o sell complete engines (13B was $30,000.00+) at the time but if
= you had your order for individual parts in before the production run they w= ould add it to the run........The parts are
beautifully done and = the early back-plates (mount) could be adapted to the stock 86-95 13B with = minimal machine
work........ I did mine on my CCM (cheap Chinese = mill) and I would not make a pimple on a machinist's behind .......
 
 The back-plate has a custom water-pump, alternato= r mount and a pad for accessory drive (vacuum, fuel ,etc)........
I purchased my plate without the internal drive gears (less expensive) as = our rotary's are all electric........

 Now to= address your question about your 20B...........They did build a few 20B en= gines but as they edged closer 
to certifying their engines = they needed a paper trail for their parts production and since the early en= gines still used
many stock Mazda parts (rotors, rotor hsgs, ecce= ntric shafts,side hsgs, etc) they started producing more parts 
<= div>and in the process changed many of the things about the stock parts (si= de housings in particular) they did not 
need or worked bett= er for their A/C engines..........I do not know all that they changed but t= he later production 13B
and 20B back-plate's will not bolt onto t= he stock front side plates unfortunately........The early 20B engines that = I
have seen photos of used the early backplate ( just the bottom = mount ears) and had two additional mounts at the 
prop reduc= tion drive making a "Bed" type mount..........The 20B's flying (besides Mis= tral's) that I am aware of all use
a bed type mount of some kind.= .......Mark modified his Lancair's stock bed mount.........Tracy Crook and = others use
a flat aluminum plate with mount cushion ears (4) at e= ach corner.........The "Cozzygirrls" still make this plate and the
rectangular 4130 tube mount that will bolt to the alum plate and can be u= sed to weld up the remainder of the mount
to fit your project....= ....Long winded but I hope this is of some help........Be glad to answer an= y other questions....... 

Link to Cozygirrls.= ........     http://www.cozygirrrl.com/aircraftpa= rts.htm

Best Regards,

 Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Eventually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Tom Gillespie <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net> wrote:
Interesting! I didn'= t know Mistrial had a mounting plate like that. Do you have any pics or a &= nbsp;source for one? I am in the same situation with a 20B and the project = I bought has a Dynafocal#1 mount.
 = Thanks for any info.
~~~tg~~~
From: Kelly Troyer <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 3:00 = AM
Subject: [FlyRotary]= Re: PERIPHERAL PORT INFO (Mark Steitle)

Mark,

&nb= sp;  Glad you mentioned your use of the individual throttle body's as = I had forgotten that you replaced the slide throttle.......I presume
<= /div>
that you used the two inch OD stainless intake tubes as called ou= t by Paul Lamar ?...........The 48 mm TB's are an almost perfect
= match for the intake tube ID.........Did you use any "Devco" sealant in the= water passage around the intake tubes in addition to the
red gas= ket sealant under the plates ?.........Also did you have any problem with T= IG weld "Spatter" getting on the chrome surface
of the rotor hsg = and causing any damage ?.........

   I h= ave one of "MISTRAL's" mount plates which bolts up to a Lyc "dynafocal" mou= nt ring and solves the thorny Rotary Engine
mount problem and wil= l allow me to switch engines (hopefully) at some point........I am building= a somewhat hybrid version of the
13BREW with RB alum rear and ce= nter hsgs (expensive 28 lb weight savings) ..........I am retaining the iro= n front hsg (rear in my 
a/c) as the "MISTRAL" plate bolts u= p to it with several 6 mm bolts and I was not fond of the idea of  my = entire engine hanging on
these bolts into aluminum threads.......= ..I also have a TO4E Turbo on the bench just in case I get this done in thi= s lifetime........<:)

Thanks Again,
K= elly Troyer  

On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Mark= Steitle <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Kelly,

P-port 20b is working great. = ; It loves to rev. and produces noticeably more HP at WOT than the side por= t motor did (verified by increase in TAS)  I first tried the boring an= d welding process on a scrap housing and didn't detect any warping or shrin= kage, so I decided to go ahead and do it to the good housings.  I thin= k my "test housing" is the picture that PL posts when he discusses welding = the p-ports.  The sealing plates only seal around the large inlet tube= s and don't totally solve the problem of sealant leakage. They could use a = second o-ring, or gasket, between the sealing plate and the housing surface= , IMHO.  There is the potential for leakage where you bolt the plates = to the housings.  I had some small but persistent leaks around the sma= ll 1/4" dia. bolts.  I was finally able to get those to seal by puttin= g a small counter-sink where the bolt head touches the plate and using an o= -ring under the bolt head.  I used button-head bolts.  This solve= d that problem. 

You'll also have to figure out the inta= ke.  Rumor has it that the throttle plate needs to be as close to the = port as possible for good idle characteristics.  You could save weight= by engineering the throttles into the housing, or do like I did and use th= ree 1-bbl throttle bodies located as close to the SS inlets as possible.&nb= sp; I found a set of three 48mm tb's off a sea-doo for $100.  I chose = these because they had injector bosses cast right into the TB housing. = ; I had to machine a new throttle shaft to get the spacing right for the 3-= rotor.  But they are working out nicely.

Thanks,
Mark 

On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:56 = AM, Kelly Troyer <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Mark,

   Even though I am going to the Dark= Side (IO-360) for expediency for the time
being I still want to = use a Rotary eventually.........I am seriously thinking about 
P porting my 13B and would like to know how your 20B is holding up parti= cularly 
at your port insert junction using the machined pla= tes and sealant.........Have you 
had any major problems wit= h leaks so far ?.........I have a pair of plates from Paul
that h= ave the "O" rings and if I recall correctly your plates were prior to the o= nes 
with "O" rings..........I am curious whether you had an= y major problems when you
were smoothing and putting the radius t= he "TIG" welds........On the same question
did the "TIG" welding = seem to cause any warping of the rotor hsg steel liner ?........
=   
 Thanks,
 Kelly Troyer











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