X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Kelly Troyer" Received: from mail-ob0-f174.google.com ([209.85.214.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.3) with ESMTPS id 7782948 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 12:16:32 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.174; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by obbop1 with SMTP id op1so22859844obb.2 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 09:15:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=6X2vJDcDDpIrlRYM2Gbplb4KgwuWJMcQdFXev4VjCck=; b=pbvBxlIjipHrS2L1VSw1H99EoCYpbM+5jZSDG/J5oQzv+M3zttOZj1RxEy7SnPM4Zt 5144nRPYwaOJfGwmIHXP9880nw3Khy2M8ianB6Fje+RqHjLgv/Qd496C2DRVvb9CRaN3 kXnOEN0ApymT4zUzNBE5zCedQa1t8S/KpezI2a2oSS22eJv/FrMkErIbj7qBcf6PphUh Lzg5/G+CGUqrEEbijZVFxZTsRu4jlP8YvGI1AEYDAL5IseLhE/C3lZAsMJhzGqdw5l7d QIJoTg3hgCIUUmW86JJFhcDdkNBySJpwovOSgDMcbQk9SAvCK2FC9ixmpRJNBoHZoqzM 8Cww== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.54.3 with SMTP id d3mr23832071oia.103.1434989759167; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 09:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.205.216 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 09:15:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 11:15:59 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: PERIPHERAL PORT INFO (Mark Steitle) To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113cd138da011205191d966c --001a113cd138da011205191d966c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Tom, For a short time several years ago Mistral while they were trying to certify their engines they sold a few complete engines and certain parts (back-plates, intake systems, reduction drives, etc).........These engines and parts were experimental and could not be used in certified a/c..........I waited 2 years for Mistral to have enough sales to make a production run of parts..........They preferred to sell complete engines (13B was $30,000.00+) at the time but if you had your order for individual parts in before the production run they would add it to the run........The parts are beautifully done and the early back-plates (mount) could be adapted to the stock 86-95 13B with minimal machine work........ I did mine on my CCM (cheap Chinese mill) and I would not make a pimple on a machinist's behind ....... The back-plate has a custom water-pump, alternator mount and a pad for accessory drive (vacuum, fuel ,etc)........ I purchased my plate without the internal drive gears (less expensive) as our rotary's are all electric........ Now to address your question about your 20B...........They did build a few 20B engines but as they edged closer to certifying their engines they needed a paper trail for their parts production and since the early engines still used many stock Mazda parts (rotors, rotor hsgs, eccentric shafts,side hsgs, etc) they started producing more parts and in the process changed many of the things about the stock parts (side housings in particular) they did not need or worked better for their A/C engines..........I do not know all that they changed but the later production 13B and 20B back-plate's will not bolt onto the stock front side plates unfortunately........The early 20B engines that I have seen photos of used the early backplate ( just the bottom mount ears) and had two additional mounts at the prop reduction drive making a "Bed" type mount..........The 20B's flying (besides Mistral's) that I am aware of all use a bed type mount of some kind........Mark modified his Lancair's stock bed mount.........Tracy Crook and others use a flat aluminum plate with mount cushion ears (4) at each corner.........The "Cozzygirrls" still make this plate and the rectangular 4130 tube mount that will bolt to the alum plate and can be used to weld up the remainder of the mount to fit your project........Long winded but I hope this is of some help........Be glad to answer any other questions....... Link to Cozygirrls......... http://www.cozygirrrl.com/aircraftparts.htm Best Regards, Kelly Troyer Dyke Delta_"Eventually" 13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2 On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Tom Gillespie wrote: > Interesting! I didn't know Mistrial had a mounting plate like that. Do you > have any pics or a source for one? I am in the same situation with a 20B > and the project I bought has a Dynafocal#1 mount. > Thanks for any info. > ~~~tg~~~ > ------------------------------ > *From:* Kelly Troyer > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, June 22, 2015 3:00 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: PERIPHERAL PORT INFO (Mark Steitle) > > Mark, > > Glad you mentioned your use of the individual throttle body's as I had > forgotten that you replaced the slide throttle.......I presume > that you used the two inch OD stainless intake tubes as called out by Paul > Lamar ?...........The 48 mm TB's are an almost perfect > match for the intake tube ID.........Did you use any "Devco" sealant in > the water passage around the intake tubes in addition to the > red gasket sealant under the plates ?.........Also did you have any > problem with TIG weld "Spatter" getting on the chrome surface > of the rotor hsg and causing any damage ?......... > > I have one of "MISTRAL's" mount plates which bolts up to a Lyc > "dynafocal" mount ring and solves the thorny Rotary Engine > mount problem and will allow me to switch engines (hopefully) at some > point........I am building a somewhat hybrid version of the > 13BREW with RB alum rear and center hsgs (expensive 28 lb weight savings) > ..........I am retaining the iron front hsg (rear in my > a/c) as the "MISTRAL" plate bolts up to it with several 6 mm bolts and I > was not fond of the idea of my entire engine hanging on > these bolts into aluminum threads.........I also have a TO4E Turbo on the > bench just in case I get this done in this lifetime........<:) > > Thanks Again, > Kelly Troyer > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Mark Steitle > wrote: > > Kelly, > > P-port 20b is working great. It loves to rev. and produces noticeably > more HP at WOT than the side port motor did (verified by increase in TAS) > I first tried the boring and welding process on a scrap housing and didn't > detect any warping or shrinkage, so I decided to go ahead and do it to the > good housings. I think my "test housing" is the picture that PL posts when > he discusses welding the p-ports. The sealing plates only seal around the > large inlet tubes and don't totally solve the problem of sealant leakage. > They could use a second o-ring, or gasket, between the sealing plate and > the housing surface, IMHO. There is the potential for leakage where you > bolt the plates to the housings. I had some small but persistent leaks > around the small 1/4" dia. bolts. I was finally able to get those to seal > by putting a small counter-sink where the bolt head touches the plate and > using an o-ring under the bolt head. I used button-head bolts. This > solved that problem. > > You'll also have to figure out the intake. Rumor has it that the throttle > plate needs to be as close to the port as possible for good idle > characteristics. You could save weight by engineering the throttles into > the housing, or do like I did and use three 1-bbl throttle bodies located > as close to the SS inlets as possible. I found a set of three 48mm tb's > off a sea-doo for $100. I chose these because they had injector bosses > cast right into the TB housing. I had to machine a new throttle shaft to > get the spacing right for the 3-rotor. But they are working out nicely. > > Thanks, > Mark > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Kelly Troyer > wrote: > > Mark, > > Even though I am going to the Dark Side (IO-360) for expediency for the > time > being I still want to use a Rotary eventually.........I am seriously > thinking about > P porting my 13B and would like to know how your 20B is holding up > particularly > at your port insert junction using the machined plates and > sealant.........Have you > had any major problems with leaks so far ?.........I have a pair of plates > from Paul > that have the "O" rings and if I recall correctly your plates were prior > to the ones > with "O" rings..........I am curious whether you had any major problems > when you > were smoothing and putting the radius the "TIG" welds........On the same > question > did the "TIG" welding seem to cause any warping of the rotor hsg steel > liner ?........ > > Thanks, > Kelly Troyer > > > > > > > > > > -- --001a113cd138da011205191d966c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,
=C2=A0 For a short time several years ago Mistral= while they were trying to certify their engines they sold a few complete
engines and certain parts (back-plates, intake systems, reduction = drives, etc).........These engines and parts were=C2=A0
experimen= tal and could not be used in certified a/c..........I waited 2 years for Mi= stral to have enough sales to make
a production run of parts.....= .....They preferred to sell complete engines (13B was $30,000.00+) at the t= ime but if
you had your order for individual parts in before the = production run they would add it to the run........The parts are
= beautifully done and the early back-plates (mount) could be adapted to the = stock 86-95 13B with minimal machine
work........ I did mine on m= y CCM (cheap Chinese mill) and I would not make a pimple on a machinist'= ;s behind .......
=C2=A0
=C2=A0The back-plate has a cus= tom water-pump, alternator mount and a pad for accessory drive (vacuum, fue= l ,etc)........
I purchased my plate without the internal drive g= ears (less expensive) as our rotary's are all electric........

=C2=A0Now to address your question about your 20B.........= ..They did build a few 20B engines but as they edged closer=C2=A0
to certifying their engines they needed a paper trail for their parts prod= uction and since the early engines still used
many stock Mazda pa= rts (rotors, rotor hsgs, eccentric shafts,side hsgs, etc) they started prod= ucing more parts=C2=A0
and in the process changed many of the thi= ngs about the stock parts (side housings in particular) they did not=C2=A0<= /div>
need or worked better for their A/C engines..........I do not kno= w all that they changed but the later production 13B
and 20B back= -plate's will not bolt onto the stock front side plates unfortunately..= ......The early 20B engines that I
have seen photos of used the e= arly backplate ( just the bottom mount ears) and had two additional mounts = at the=C2=A0
prop reduction drive making a "Bed" type m= ount..........The 20B's flying (besides Mistral's) that I am aware = of all use
a bed type mount of some kind........Mark modified his= Lancair's stock bed mount.........Tracy Crook and others use
a flat aluminum plate with mount cushion ears (4) at each corner.........T= he "Cozzygirrls" still make this plate and the
rectangu= lar 4130 tube mount that will bolt to the alum plate and can be used to wel= d up the remainder of the mount
to fit your project........Long w= inded but I hope this is of some help........Be glad to answer any other qu= estions.......=C2=A0

Link to Cozygirrls......... = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http:= //www.cozygirrrl.com/aircraftparts.htm

Best Re= gards,

=C2=A0Kelly Troyer
Dyke Delta_"Ev= entually"
13B_RD1C_EC2_EM2


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Tom Gillespie <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Interes= ting! I didn't know Mistrial had a mounting plate like that. Do you hav= e any pics or a =C2=A0source for one? I am in the same situation with a 20B= and the project I bought has a Dynafocal#1 mount.
=C2=A0Thanks for any info.
~~~tg~~~=
From: Kelly Troyer <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 3:00 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PERIPHERAL PORT INFO (Mark Steitle)

Mar= k,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Glad you mentioned your use of the individual = throttle body's as I had forgotten that you replaced the slide throttle= .......I presume
that you used the two inch OD stainless in= take tubes as called out by Paul Lamar ?...........The 48 mm TB's are a= n almost perfect
match for the intake tube ID.........Did you use= any "Devco" sealant in the water passage around the intake tubes= in addition to the
red gasket sealant under the plates ?........= .Also did you have any problem with TIG weld "Spatter" getting on= the chrome surface
of the rotor hsg and causing any damage ?....= .....

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have one of "MISTRAL'= ;s" mount plates which bolts up to a Lyc "dynafocal" mount r= ing and solves the thorny Rotary Engine
mount problem and will al= low me to switch engines (hopefully) at some point........I am building a s= omewhat hybrid version of the
13BREW with RB alum rear and center= hsgs (expensive 28 lb weight savings) ..........I am retaining the iron fr= ont hsg (rear in my=C2=A0
a/c) as the "MISTRAL" plate b= olts up to it with several 6 mm bolts and I was not fond of the idea of =C2= =A0my entire engine hanging on
these bolts into aluminum threads.= ........I also have a TO4E Turbo on the bench just in case I get this done = in this lifetime........<:)

Thanks Again,
=
Kelly Troyer =C2=A0

On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 3:28 PM= , Mark Steitle <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= > wrote:
Kelly,

= P-port 20b is working great.=C2=A0 It loves to rev. and produces noticeably= more HP at WOT than the side port motor did (verified by increase in TAS)= =C2=A0 I first tried the boring and welding process on a scrap housing and = didn't detect any warping or shrinkage, so I decided to go ahead and do= it to the good housings.=C2=A0 I think my "test housing" is the = picture that PL posts when he discusses welding the p-ports.=C2=A0 The seal= ing plates only seal around the large inlet tubes and don't totally sol= ve the problem of sealant leakage. They could use a second o-ring, or gaske= t, between the sealing plate and the housing surface, IMHO.=C2=A0 There is = the potential for leakage where you bolt the plates to the housings.=C2=A0 = I had some small but persistent leaks around the small 1/4" dia. bolts= .=C2=A0 I was finally able to get those to seal by putting a small counter-= sink where the bolt head touches the plate and using an o-ring under the bo= lt head.=C2=A0 I used button-head bolts.=C2=A0 This solved that problem.=C2= =A0

You'll also have to figure out the intake.=C2=A0 Rumo= r has it that the throttle plate needs to be as close to the port as possib= le for good idle characteristics.=C2=A0 You could save weight by engineerin= g the throttles into the housing, or do like I did and use three 1-bbl thro= ttle bodies located as close to the SS inlets as possible.=C2=A0 I found a = set of three 48mm tb's off a sea-doo for $100.=C2=A0 I chose these beca= use they had injector bosses cast right into the TB housing.=C2=A0 I had to= machine a new throttle shaft to get the spacing right for the 3-rotor.=C2= =A0 But they are working out nicely.

Thanks,
Mark=C2= =A0

On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Kell= y Troyer <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Mark,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Even though I a= m going to the Dark Side (IO-360) for expediency for the time
bei= ng I still want to use a Rotary eventually.........I am seriously thinking = about=C2=A0
P porting my 13B and would like to know how your 20B = is holding up particularly=C2=A0
at your port insert junction usi= ng the machined plates and sealant.........Have you=C2=A0
had any= major problems with leaks so far ?.........I have a pair of plates from Pa= ul
that have the "O" rings and if I recall correctly yo= ur plates were prior to the ones=C2=A0
with "O" rings..= ........I am curious whether you had any major problems when you
= were smoothing and putting the radius the "TIG" welds........On t= he same question
did the "TIG" welding seem to cause an= y warping of the rotor hsg steel liner ?........
=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0Thanks,
=C2=A0Kelly Troyer












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