X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: Received: from omr-m08.mx.aol.com ([64.12.222.129] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.2) with ESMTPS id 7740302 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 11:36:16 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.222.129; envelope-from=ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mbd01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mbd01.mx.aol.com [172.26.252.15]) by omr-m08.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 25D30704AD33B for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2015 11:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-mxe001b.mail.aol.com (core-mxe001.mail.aol.com [172.29.197.129]) by mtaomg-mbd01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 9B2D738000081 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2015 11:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Full-name: ARGOLDMAN Message-ID: <7958a.67a85571.42a7104c@aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 11:35:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: new operating question To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_7958a.67a85571.42a7104c_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.7 sub 4049 X-Originating-IP: [50.151.84.32] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20140625; t=1433777742; bh=ymwxwqwp30+32p4YgxXXjYyBFT6LjytQZxtXhgkdp9Q=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=AlzV+EAJcDEfzAZ0pBt40TNla1ApwNeV1xIm58CD2eMHz7wnunFbLoKhsKsD5GNAf iQJ1RYqLGgNA1qjF/Bu4qWfsdngvZ6F7M0PfqOSivEa/ZU9mjpOGeBzqJUUy71/Jmp uBGVKW0uc58bXzToQB+k6ZVNs9to51wjq+rZVpao= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1afc0f5575b64d5eda --part1_7958a.67a85571.42a7104c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Thanks all for the power setting information.-- Now comes the additional= =20 situation of tweak leaning the engine (ec-3 and em-3) once leaning is=20 desired. Of course my concern with this, and the engine speed is Knocking= and=20 possible destruction of the apex seals. The Renesis in the car has a kno= ck=20 sensor which, I assume, protects the engine in times of hard knocks. Howe= ver=20 we do not use this sensor (I think that that was one of Tracy's future=20 projects before he had the audacity to retire on us (enjoy your well diss= erved =20 retirement Tracy). =20 I know that the rotors are bullet proof, to a great degree, but knocking= =20 can, I think, damage the seals and then the trochoids.=20 =20 What say all of you =20 Leaning shy as aggressive leaning on a Lycoming IO 540K1E5 necessitated a= =20 top chrome overhaul at 350 hours since new. (years ago when things were = =20 much cheaper) =20 Rich =20 =20 In a message dated 6/8/2015 10:20:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: =20 Bobby,=20 Wouldn=E2=80=99t you think that equates to about 250 hp on take off??=20 Bill =20 =20 =20 ____________________________________ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 9:47 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: new operating question Bill,=20 I believe my normal fuel flow is actually closer to 23gph at 7000 rpm\ 38= =E2=80=9D=20 MP and 12.5 FA. I don=E2=80=99t really look at it anymore during takeoff.= I=E2=80=99ll=20 pull current engine logs when my AFS-3400 EM gets back from repair. It=20 decided to start rebooting every few minutes. I can run 40.5=E2=80=9D MP= / 7500 rpm at=20 sea level but avoid the top limits. My MT controller is within 100 rpm.= =20 Bobby=20 =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] =20 Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 8:46 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: new operating question Bobby,=20 You can take my fuel burn numbers with a grain of salt. The EM-2 is not= =20 completely calibrated for fuel flow.=20 By the way, is your prop controller dial calibrated to the prop rpm you= =20 actually get? Mine is not and I think that Mark=E2=80=99s may not be eit= her based on=20 some of the things he has written. =20 To get 7100 engine rpm, which is 2500 prop rpm, I have to set the=20 controller for 2600 for takeoff. 2400 setting will get me 6500, etc.. = Early on, I=20 thought that the tach on the EM-2 might be off, but I decided that to be= =20 pretty unlikely. However, there is a disconnect between the two.=20 Bill =20 =20 =20 ____________________________________ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 7:01 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: new operating question =20 Bill =20 =20 12 gal/hr for takeoff sounds extremely low. I'm closer to 25.=20 =20 =20 I leave the prop in automatic mode all the time. I set the prop to go=20 around rpm on downwind. 2300 / 6500 works well for me and almost eliminat= es air=20 breaking during short final. I try to carry a small amount of power=20 through the flare but I think that's common with RV's. I had to really wo= rk on=20 slowing down before entering the pattern and adjusting the prop to 2300.= =20 =20 =20 Bobby Sent from my iPad =20 On Jun 7, 2015, at 11:25 PM, Bill Bradburry <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net= _=20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote: =20 Charlie,=20 I am flying a Lancair Legacy Fixed Gear. I burn 8.5 =E2=80=93 9 gal/hr= at cruise=20 and a little over 12 on take off. I don=E2=80=99t have my fuel flow cali= bration =20 completed and it could be part of a gallon or so off on the EM-2. I get ov= er =20 20 mpg at over 185 mph which I still have trouble getting my head around!= =20 In a car going that fast you would be measuring it in gallons/mile! I= =20 really never tried to lean the engine before I put the broadband sensor= in=20 the plane so I don=E2=80=99t really know the answer about the egt spread.= I do get a=20 lot higher egt readings than were advertised. I was expecting temps in= =20 the 15-1600s, but they are in the 1700s.=20 Since the rotary is so sensitive to rpm for power output, I don=E2=80=99t= know if=20 I would have been happy with it with a fixed prop unless I had more power= =20 than I needed. I have seen two MT props for sale since I bought mine and= =20 both were good deals. I highly recommend the electric prop. It responds= a =20 little slower than a hydraulic prop, but that is only a problem if you sla= m =20 the throttle. I guess the other con for the prop is it helps to carry =20 some power to touchdown because if you chop power in the flare, the prop= goes=20 flat and acts like a big brake and the plane seems to just stop flying an= d=20 drop. I carry power, but I think Mark switches the prop to manual in the= =20 pattern and lands it like it was a fixed prop. I don=E2=80=99t know what= Bobby does=20 in this case.=20 Bill =20 =20 =20 ____________________________________ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] =20 Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 7:14 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: new operating question =20 Hi Bill, I'm always hungry for 'numbers' like that. Can you refresh my memory on= =20 which plane you're flying? What's your fuel flow during takeoff? And I'm really interested in your fuel flow at your cruise setting of 600= 0=20 rpm full throttle up at 7500-8000 feet. Do you have an EGT in addition to= =20 your f/a gauge? If so, what's the egt spread between peak and leaned to= =20 your cruise setting of 16-1 f/a ratio (how many degrees lean of peak)? Having a controllable prop certainly makes it easier to get a full set of= =20 performance numbers, doesn't it? Many thanks, Charlie On 6/7/2015 2:59 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Rich,=20 I am flying the NA Renesis with MT electric prop and wideband O2 sensor.= =20 Take off and initial climb is WOT with 7100 rpm, after about 500 ft AGL,= I=20 dial the prop back to 6500 rpm, still WOT. Cruise climb is WOT and=20 6000-6200 rpm, and cruise is WOT and 5200-5800 rpm. All climbs are at 12.= 0-12.5=20 F/A mixture and cruise is 15.8-16.0 F/A mixture.=20 I never move the throttle off of wide open until I am slowing to enter th= e=20 pattern for landing. Engine speed is controlled with the prop and power= to=20 some extent with the mixture.=20 I have hopes that after Bobby makes his decision as to whether to go with= =20 the turbo or the 20B, he will give me the other one! :>)=20 Bill =20 =20 =20 ____________________________________ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = =20 Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 10:25 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: new operating question =20 Rich,=20 =20 My normal, not in a hurry settings. =20 =20 38" MP / 7000 rpm for takeoff and initial climb with F/A 12.5-12.0. Cruis= e=20 climb 5800 rpm 30-32" MP F/A 13.5- 12.5. Preferred cruise rpm 4800- 5200= =20 At less than 30" MP and F/A 15.8-16.0. Full throttle. Prop rpm controls= =20 engine rpm and super charger bypass controls MP. A turbo charger and auto= motive=20 waste gate would likely require throttle management during high rpm=20 operations. =20 =20 Bobby Hughes=20 =20 Super charged Renesis with electric MT prop. =20 (New Turbo charger and a 20B on the bench- still haven't made a decision= =20 about upgrading the RV10. ) =20 Sent from my iPad =20 On Jun 7, 2015, at 9:34 AM, ARGOLDMAN <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_=20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote: =20 =20 Greetings genlepeople of the rotary pursuasion, =20 For those of you using variable pitch (C/S) props, an operating question= =20 that has been bugging me. Perhaps the collective wisdom of this group can= =20 set my mind at rest. =20 In piston aircraft engines, the concept of running over squared MP vs RPM= =20 has been heavily questioned to the extent that some suggest running at fu= ll=20 throttle all the time and controlling the power output via RPM (within=20 reason). The thought is to, I believe, eliminate the induction restrictio= n of=20 the butterfly valve increasing the efficiency. =20 Now we have a rotor spinning, a gear box gearing and a propeller=20 propelling. Does this concept hold true for the rotaries. What are people= doing in=20 terms of setting power after take off (full throttle max RPM). =20 My enquiring and rotating mind wants to know.=20 =20 (Unturbocharged Renesis with RD1-c Box) =20 Thanks =20 Rich --part1_7958a.67a85571.42a7104c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Thanks all for the power setting information.-- Now comes the additio= nal=20 situation of tweak leaning the engine (ec-3 and em-3) once leaning is desi= red.=20 Of course my concern with this, and the engine speed is Knocking and possi= ble=20 destruction of the apex seals. The Renesis  in the car has a knock se= nsor=20 which, I assume, protects the engine in times of hard knocks. However we= do not=20 use this sensor (I think that that was one of Tracy's future projects befo= re he=20 had the audacity to retire on us (enjoy your well disse= rved=20 retirement Tracy).
 
I know that the rotors are bullet proof, to a great degree, but knock= ing=20 can, I think, damage the seals and then the trochoids.
 
What say all of you
 
Leaning shy as aggressive leaning on a Lycoming IO 540K1E5 necessitat= ed a=20 top chrome overhaul at 350 hours since new. (years ago when thing= s were=20 much cheaper)
 
Rich
 
In a message dated 6/8/2015 10:20:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Bobby,

Wouldn=E2=80= =99t you think=20 that equates to about 250 hp on take off??

Bill=20

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft= =20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 9:47= =20 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: new oper= ating=20 question

 

Bill,

&nb= sp;

I believ= e my=20 normal fuel flow is actually closer to 23gph at 7000 rpm\ 38=E2=80=9D MP= and 12.5 FA.=20 I don=E2=80=99t really look at it anymore during takeoff. I=E2=80=99ll= pull current engine=20 logs when my AFS-3400 EM gets back from repair. It decided to start rebo= oting=20 every few minutes.  I can run 40.5=E2=80=9D MP / 7500 rpm at sea le= vel but avoid=20 the top limits.  My MT controller is within 100 rpm.=20

&nb= sp;

Bobby

&nb= sp;

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft= [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net]=20
Sent: Monday, June= 08, 2015=20 8:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: new oper= ating=20 question

 

Bobby,

You can take= my fuel=20 burn numbers with a grain of salt.  The EM-2 is not completely cali= brated=20 for fuel flow.

 

By the way,= is your=20 prop controller dial calibrated to the prop rpm you actually get? = Mine=20 is not and I think that Mark=E2=80=99s may not be either based on some= of the things=20 he has written. 

To get 7100= engine=20 rpm, which is 2500 prop rpm, I have to set the controller for 2600 for= =20 takeoff.  2400 setting will get me 6500, etc..  Early on, I th= ought=20 that the tach on the EM-2 might be off, but I decided that to be pretty= =20 unlikely.  However, there is a disconnect between the=20 two.

 

Bill=20

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft= =20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net]
= Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 7:01= =20 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: new oper= ating=20 question

 

Bill

 

12 gal/hr for takeoff sounds extremely low. I'= m closer=20 to 25. 

 

 I leave the prop in automatic mode all= the time.=20 I set the prop to go around rpm on downwind. 2300 / 6500 works well for= me and=20 almost eliminates air breaking during short final. I try to carry a smal= l=20 amount of power through the flare but I think that's common with RV's.= I had=20 to really work on slowing down before entering the pattern and adjusting= the=20 prop to 2300. 

 

Bobby

Sent from my=20 iPad


On Jun 7,= 2015, at=20 11:25 PM, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /A>>=20 wrote:

Charlie,

I am flying= a=20 Lancair Legacy Fixed Gear.  I burn 8.5 =E2=80=93 9 gal/hr at crui= se and a=20 little over 12 on take off.  I don=E2=80=99t have my fuel flow ca= libration=20 completed and it could be part of a gallon or so off on the EM-2. I ge= t over=20 20 mpg at over 185 mph which I still have trouble getting my head=20 around!  In a car going that fast you would be measuring it in=20 gallons/mile!   I really never tried to lean the engine befo= re I=20 put the broadband sensor in the plane so I don=E2=80=99t really know= the answer=20 about the egt spread.  I do get a lot higher egt readings than we= re=20 advertised.  I was expecting temps in the 15-1600s, but they are= in the=20 1700s.

 

Since the= rotary is=20 so sensitive to rpm for power output, I don=E2=80=99t know if I would= have been=20 happy with it with a fixed prop unless I had more power than I needed.=  =20 I have seen two MT props for sale since I bought mine and both were go= od=20 deals.  I highly recommend the electric prop.  It responds= a=20 little slower than a hydraulic prop, but that is only a problem if you= slam=20 the throttle.  I guess the other con for the prop is it helps to= carry=20 some power to touchdown because if you chop power in the flare, the pr= op=20 goes flat and acts like a big brake and the plane seems to just stop= flying=20 and drop.  I carry power, but I think Mark switches the prop to= manual=20 in the pattern and lands it like it was a fixed prop.  I don=E2= =80=99t know=20 what Bobby does in this case.

 

Bill=20

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net]=20
Sent: Sunday, June= 07,=20 2015 7:14 PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: new op= erating=20 question

 

Hi Bill,

I'm always hungry for 'numbe= rs' like=20 that. Can you refresh my memory on which plane you're flying?

W= hat's=20 your fuel flow during takeoff?

And I'm really interested in you= r fuel=20 flow at your cruise setting of 6000 rpm full throttle up at 7500-8000= feet.=20 Do you have an EGT in addition to your f/a gauge? If so, what's the eg= t=20 spread between peak and leaned to your cruise setting of 16-1 f/a rati= o (how=20 many degrees lean of peak)?

Having a controllable prop certainl= y=20 makes it easier to get a full set of performance numbers, doesn't=20 it?

Many thanks,

Charlie

On 6/7/2015 2:59 PM, Bil= l=20 Bradburry wrote:

Rich,

I am flyi= ng the=20 NA Renesis with MT electric prop and wideband O2=20 sensor.

Take off= and=20 initial climb is WOT with 7100 rpm, after about 500 ft AGL, I dial= the=20 prop back to 6500 rpm, still WOT. Cruise climb is WOT and 6000-6200= rpm,=20 and cruise is WOT and 5200-5800 rpm. All climbs are at 12.0-12.5 F/A= =20 mixture and cruise is 15.8-16.0 F/A mixture.

I never= move the=20 throttle off of wide open until I am slowing to enter the pattern fo= r=20 landing. Engine speed is controlled with the prop and power to some= extent=20 with the mixture.

I have ho= pes that=20 after Bobby makes his decision as to whether to go with the turbo or= the=20 20B, he will give me the other one! :>)<= /P>

Bill=20

<= FONT=20 color=3Dblack size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman">

<= SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Fr= om:=20 Rotary motors in=20 aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lanc= aironline.net]=20
Sent: Sunday, Ju= ne 07,=20 2015 10:25 AM
To:= =20 Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: new= =20 operating question

Rich,

My normal, not in a hurry settings.=20

38" MP / 7000 rpm for takeoff and initial= climb=20 with F/A 12.5-12.0. Cruise climb 5800 rpm 30-32" MP F/A 13.5- 12.5.= =20 Preferred cruise rpm 4800- 5200 At less than 30" MP and F/A 15.8-16.= 0.=20 Full throttle. Prop rpm controls engine rpm and super charger bypass= =20 controls MP. A turbo charger and automotive waste gate would likely= =20 require throttle management during high rpm operations.=20

Bobby Hughes

=

Super charged Renesis with electric MT=20 prop.

(New Turbo charger and a 20B on the bench-= still=20 haven't made a decision about upgrading the RV10.=20 )



Sent from my=20 iPad


On Jun= 7, 2015,=20 at 9:34 AM, ARGOLDMAN <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net>=20 wrote:

Greetings genlepeopl= e of the=20 rotary pursuasion,

For those of you usi= ng=20 variable pitch (C/S) props, an operating question that has been bu= gging=20 me. Perhaps the collective wisdom of this group can set my mind at= =20 rest.

In piston aircraft= engines,=20 the concept of running over squared MP vs RPM has been heavily=20 questioned to the extent that some suggest running at full throttl= e all=20 the time and controlling the power output via RPM (within reason).= The=20 thought is to, I believe, eliminate the induction restriction of= the=20 butterfly valve increasing the=20 efficiency.

Now we have a rotor= =20 spinning, a gear box gearing and a propeller propelling. Does this= =20 concept hold true for the rotaries. What are people doing in terms= of=20 setting power after take off (full throttle max=20 RPM).

My enquiring and rot= ating=20 mind wants to know.

(Unturbocharged Rene= sis with=20 RD1-c Box)

Thanks=

Rich

 

<= /DIV>
--part1_7958a.67a85571.42a7104c_boundary--