X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Jeff Whaley" Received: from hub026-NJ-8.exch026.serverdata.net ([206.225.166.171] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.2) with ESMTPS id 7695380 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 16 May 2015 08:26:36 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.225.166.171; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from MBX026-E1-NJ-2.exch026.domain.local ([10.240.14.52]) by HUB026-NJ-8.exch026.domain.local ([10.240.14.236]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Sat, 16 May 2015 05:26:01 -0700 To: Charlie England Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Return to Flight - 2 Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Return to Flight - 2 Thread-Index: AQHQj79FNlcuPX/p7kSl5gFK3LI4/p1+gmwC Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 12:26:00 +0000 Message-ID: <234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EC0267@mbx026-e1-nj-2.exch026.domain.local> References: <5556AE9C.4060502@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5556AE9C.4060502@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-CA X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [204.237.127.89] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EC0267mbx026e1nj2exch_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EC0267mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EC0267mbx026e1nj2exch_" --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EC0267mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the replies guys; all good points to consider and I'll try to ad= dress your comments. Yes, I could remove the outlet plenum but the radiator air would now combin= e with oil cooler air and pressure inside the cowl, right now it"s isolated= . The right nostril feeds my stock Mazda oil cooler; left nostril feeds a Flu= idyne - having extra oil cooling there is a possibility to scavenge more = air for the radiator. Yes, the pinch IS a problem and is there mainly because of the oil pan behi= nd it; also thought the pinch (or downward turning vane) would help the fro= nt portion of core. I have a manometer that was used on previous setup - just clear plastic tub= ing with red food coloring - it's difficult to do 1 step at a time because = I'm using a test pilot - need to make best efforts even it means combining = solutions. No, I haven't done any flow testing and yes I should. Back to the drawing board ... will post when more results available. Thanks again ... Jeff ________________________________ From: Charlie England [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: May 15, 2015 10:42 PM Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Return to Flight - 2 Hi Jeff, First, a caution: I'm a long way from flying, so this is untested in flight= . But I did a similar thing to what Bobby said, and used a leaf blower to pre= ssurize my rad plenum. I used a thread on a stick to check outflow from the= rad core. Looking at the drawing of your wedge plenum, I'd bet that almost= all the air is coming out the last 5 or 8 inches of the core. Before I mad= e mine, I asked Tracy about his RV-8 plenum. He said to pinch the back down= tight; that he had to stuff open cell foam in the back of his to even the = flow, so I did (I thought). He happened to be here as I was getting ready t= o glass the mold, and commented that it was probably too thick at the rear.= (It was *much* tighter than your drawing shows.) Sure enough, when I check= ed flow, all the air came through the rear of the core. To get even flow fr= om front to back, I re-shaped the inside of the wedge until the last couple= of inches almost touch the core. Also, in order to spread flow across the core (side to side, perpendicular = to the inlet flow), I had to install a turning vane in the inlet duct. For = reference, I'm building an RV-7 with a Sam James cowl made for a Lyc; not t= he rotary cowl with a chin inlet for the rad. So my ~4.5" round inlet trans= itions to more or less rectangular cross section with slightly increased ar= ea where it arrives at the front edge of the core. Then it's a concave wedg= e, pinching down to almost a knife edge at the back end of the core. No idea if it will actually cool, but I do know that the airflow coming out= of the core is pretty evenly balanced when using the leaf blower to push a= ir through it. Pics below. The trailing edge is a lot thinner than it looks, because there= 's 'filler' on the inside to thin the wedge. FWIW... Charlie http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/rv7charlie/media/1d6b1e19.jpg.html http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/rv7charlie/media/slobovia12a_zps3194777e.= jpg.html http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/rv7charlie/media/pdrop2012_zpscbc0ae13.jp= g.html http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/rv7charlie/media/4seatback_zps033399e2.jp= g.html http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/rv7charlie/media/Slobovia14_zps413ea84e.j= pg.html On 5/15/2015 2:17 PM, Jeff Whaley wrote: Actually I don=92t have any really good pictures because I took it apart = =85 but attached is a side-view after removal of the inlet diffuser on top = and also a sketch of approximate scale and shape of what I tried to make, (= I don=92t have a damper plate or cowl flap yet). The top shape isn=92t qui= te right; needs to be pinched more at the rear, also am considering a turni= ng vane to direct more air through the front half. Trying to make air bend= 90 degrees twice isn=92t easy but I chose this orientation because of the = desire to add a damper at the output for winter operations. I could drop t= he rear of radiator and bring air in through the bottom, spilling out over = the engine but would lose the ability to have a damper =96 I don=92t like t= he idea of inlet dampers. On top of it all, my climb speed is usually only= 90 mph; I don=92t have the ability to get extra pressure from increased ai= rspeed. P.S. the radiator is the Griffin 2-58185-X, same as several other= installs on this list. The top plenum was out in the SUV; hopefully more attachments in next post = =85 Jeff From: David Leonard Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Return to Flight - 2 Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 09:48:38 -0700 To: Rotary motors in aircraft [Message Header] [Undecoded Message] Sorry to hear that Jeff. My apologies if you have already posted pictures = of the your installation and the diffuser, but could you post some now? Dave Leonard On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Jeff Whaley > wrote: From: Jeff Whaley Sent: Friday, May 15, 2015 11:19 AM To: 'Bobby J. Hughes' Subject: Return to Flight - 2 Well, the second flight occurred last night with same results as before; on= e short low-level circuit due to insufficient cooling =85 looks like Al Wic= k made the correct prediction. There are 3 things I can try with the current configuration: 1) Increase in= let area 2) Increase outlet area (adjustable cowl flap) 3) Re-profile the p= inched diffuser. I will do all 3 and see what happens. If all of the above show remarkable improvement then repositioning the radi= ator is the only alternative. Jeff This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EC0267mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the replies guys; all good points to consider and I'll tr= y to address your comments.
Yes, I could remove the outlet plenum but the radiator air would now combin= e with oil cooler air and pressure inside the cowl, right now it"s iso= lated.
The right nostril feeds my stock Mazda oil cooler; left nostril feeds a Flu= idyne  -  having extra oil cooling there is a possibility to scav= enge more air for the radiator.
Yes, the pinch IS a problem and is there mainly because of the oil pan behi= nd it; also thought the pinch (or downward turning vane) would help the fro= nt portion of core.
I have a manometer that was used on previous setup - just clear plastic tub= ing with red food coloring - it's difficult to do 1 step at a time because = I'm using a test pilot - need to make best efforts even it means combining = solutions.
No, I haven't done any flow testing and yes I should.
Back to the drawing board ... will post when more results available.
Thanks again ...   Jeff
From: Charlie England [flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net]
Sent: May 15, 2015 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Return to Flight - 2

Hi Jeff,

First, a caution: I'm a long way from flying, so this is untested in flight= .

But I did a similar thing to what Bobby said, and used a leaf blower to pre= ssurize my rad plenum. I used a thread on a stick to check outflow from the= rad core. Looking at the drawing of your wedge plenum, I'd bet that almost= all the air is coming out the last 5 or 8 inches of the core. Before I made mine, I asked Tracy about his RV-= 8 plenum. He said to pinch the back down tight; that he had to stuff open c= ell foam in the back of his to even the flow, so I did (I thought). He happ= ened to be here as I was getting ready to glass the mold, and commented that it was probably too thick at t= he rear. (It was *much* tighter than your drawing shows.) Sure enough, when= I checked flow, all the air came through the rear of the core. To get even= flow from front to back, I re-shaped the inside of the wedge until the last couple of inches almost touch the c= ore.

Also, in order to spread flow across the core (side to side, perpendicular = to the inlet flow), I had to install a turning vane in the inlet duct. For = reference, I'm building an RV-7 with a Sam James cowl made for a Lyc; not t= he rotary cowl with a chin inlet for the rad. So my ~4.5" round inlet transitions to more or less rect= angular cross section with slightly increased area where it arrives at the = front edge of the core. Then it's a concave wedge, pinching down to almost = a knife edge at the back end of the core.

No idea if it will actually cool, but I do know that the airflow coming out= of the core is pretty evenly balanced when using the leaf blower to push a= ir through it.

Pics below. The trailing edge is a lot thinner than it looks, because there= 's 'filler' on the inside to thin the wedge.

FWIW...

Charlie

http://s1155.photob= ucket.com/user/rv7charlie/media/1d6b1e19.jpg.html
http= ://s1155.photobucket.com/user/rv7charlie/media/slobovia12a_zps3194777e.jpg.= html
http:/= /s1155.photobucket.com/user/rv7charlie/media/pdrop2012_zpscbc0ae13.jpg.html=
http:/= /s1155.photobucket.com/user/rv7charlie/media/4seatback_zps033399e2.jpg.html=
http:= //s1155.photobucket.com/user/rv7charlie/media/Slobovia14_zps413ea84e.jpg.ht= ml


On 5/15/2015 2:17 PM, Jeff Whaley wrote:

Actually I don=92t have= any really good pictures because I took it apart =85 but attached is a sid= e-view after removal of the inlet diffuser on top and also a sketch of approximate scale and shape of what I tried to make, (I don=92t = have a damper plate or cowl flap yet).  The top shape isn=92t quite ri= ght; needs to be pinched more at the rear, also am considering a turning va= ne to direct more air through the front half.  Trying to make air bend 90 degrees twice isn=92t easy but I chose this ori= entation because of the desire to add a damper at the output for winter ope= rations.  I could drop the rear of radiator and bring air in through t= he bottom, spilling out over the engine but would lose the ability to have a damper =96 I don=92t like the idea of= inlet dampers.  On top of it all, my climb speed is usually only 90 m= ph; I don=92t have the ability to get extra pressure from increased airspee= d.   P.S. the radiator is the Griffin 2-58185-X, same as several other installs on this list.

The top plenum was out = in the SUV; hopefully more attachments in next post =85

Jeff

 

From:

David Leonard <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Subject:

Re: [FlyRotary] Return to Flight - 2

Date:

Fri, 15 May 2015 09:48:38 -0700

To:

Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

3D"Message

3D"Undecoded

Sorry to hear that Jeff.  My apologies if you h= ave already posted pictures of the your installation and the diffuser, but = could you post some now?

 

Dave Leonard

 

On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 8:19 AM, Jeff Whaley <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net> wrote:

From: Jeff W= haley
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2015 11:19 AM
To: 'Bobby J. Hughes'
Subject: Return to Flight - 2

 

Well, the second flight= occurred last night with same results as before; one short low-level circu= it due to insufficient cooling =85 looks like Al Wick made the correct prediction.

There are 3 things I ca= n try with the current configuration: 1) Increase inlet area 2) Increase ou= tlet area (adjustable cowl flap) 3) Re-profile the pinched diffuser.  I will do all 3 and see what happens.

If all of the above sho= w remarkable improvement then repositioning the radiator is the only altern= ative.

Jeff

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the origin= al message. Thank you. 

--=0A=
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A=
Archive and UnSub:   http://m=
ail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A=

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the origin= al message. Thank you. --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EC0267mbx026e1nj2exch_-- --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EC0267mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="ATT00001.gif" Content-Description: ATT00001.gif Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ATT00001.gif"; size=849; creation-date="Sat, 16 May 2015 10:01:25 GMT"; modification-date="Sat, 16 May 2015 10:01:25 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAINgDxCRw4 EAC+fwgTIjT4DwCAAwIXHlSYkKHDhxEZUpTYEONEjRstOoR4ECRFkSQ5bux4saXDgAA7 --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EC0267mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="ATT00002.gif" Content-Description: ATT00002.gif Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ATT00002.gif"; size=857; creation-date="Sat, 16 May 2015 10:01:25 GMT"; modification-date="Sat, 16 May 2015 10:01:25 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAIPgDxCRw4 EAC+fwcQKjxgMCHDhAD+GUQYEcDDhhIzVjwIkSJDfA8zQjxYUWRDixVHmnSI0aHCiS5ZAphJs2ZA ADs= --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EC0267mbx026e1nj2exch_--