X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Bill Bradburry" Received: from vms173017pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.17] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.2) with ESMTPS id 7690344 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 14 May 2015 00:08:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.46.173.17; envelope-from=bbradburry@verizon.net Received: from Desktop ([71.164.185.6]) by vms173017.mailsrvcs.net (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.32.0 64bit (built Jul 16 2014)) with ESMTPA id <0NOB00IPVNHIDS40@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 13 May 2015 23:08:07 -0500 (CDT) X-CMAE-Score: 0 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=PIC4Ikvq c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=20weQFHSdBTlwctzPCQ/Gw==:117 a=kUPQlYmSbg0A:10 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=oR5dmqMzAAAA:8 a=-9mUelKeXuEA:10 a=h1PgugrvaO0A:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=9iDbn-4jx3cA:10 a=cKsnjEOsciEA:10 a=gZbpxnkM3yUA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=FVgQicCPuA4HHE0HM9UA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=L8cQb7v_SU4daFaedrIA:9 a=JS1KMBfk3q0XXoLZ:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-reply-to: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System photo of bottom Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 23:08:07 -0500 Message-id: <6D07F8890C964C7DB61F8B8E58CC1EEC@Desktop> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01D08DD1.AC9A77B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AdCN2zKZxwSRbWw6QcSjz2sOw4CUmgAHLFFA X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01D08DD1.AC9A77B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bobby, I haven't flown in a couple of weeks. I have been moving from hangar to hangar at the airport. I started out moving from GYI up at Sherman, TX down to GPM at Grand Prairie. This is a little closer but not much. I was in a patio hangar (also known as a car port) for a month, then moved into a T hangar. That hangar proved to be not much of an impediment to rain, so I moved again. This one is supposed to be dry, but to tell the truth, it has rained so much the last week or so, I have not gone out to see if it is leaking. :>( I still have that intermittent hiccup, backfire, miss, what ever would best describe it. Usually it is a single event several minutes apart with random frequency. Makes me think about static buildup and occasional spark. I have also been fighting a persistent fuel leak at my fuel filter. I think that is now fixed. I replaced my previous setup with the filters that Mark Steitle recommended. I taxied around the other day and had no leaks. I think the various plumbing would be the problem with mounting the 20B if you already had a mount for the 13B. I talked to the Cozy Girrls a while back about making a 20B plate that had the rubber isolation mounting holes in the same location for the 13B. They didn't seem to be real interested in the idea, but there is plenty of room, in my plane at least, to mount the 20B so that the prop is in the same location as the current setup. That means that you could just build up the 20B and set it on the existing mount and everything would line up. You would still have the intake, exhaust, fuel and water plumbing to do. I am still thinking about that or a turbo. I think a turbo with no intercooler would work if you kept the manifold pressure below 38 inches or so. Bill _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 7:16 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System photo of bottom Bill I picked mine up from another builder that was selling his project due to medical issues. I'm not sure about making the swap. I had planned to replace my super charger with a turbo and still may take that route. Yes both have their pros and cons. My biggest issue with the 20B swap is time and having to remake a lot of parts. Have you been able to fly lately and did you identify the source of your engine stumble issue? Bobby Sent from my iPad On May 13, 2015, at 7:04 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: So are a lot of folks upgrading to the 20B? Where are you finding your engines and to those who don't mind disclosing, what are you having to pay for a 20B I have considered either the 20B or going to a turbo on the Renesis for my Lancair Legacy. There are pros and cons both way. I would like to have an honest 250 HP here and I really stress the honest. I would like to see a 250-270 HP takeoff at sea level, and a cruise at 8K ft of close to 200 HP Bill _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 12:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System photo of bottom Bobby, Curious as to the serial # (A,B,C,D XXX) of your 20B.........I purchased Rob Johnson's unused early (Before reinforced dowel area side plates) 20B serial #A304 recently... He purchased it in about 1997 for his Velocity and did not use it..........Amazing how small a package that 250+ hp is after removing about 100 lbs of turbos and other unneeded parts from it........ Kelly Troyer On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote: Kelly, No weight and balance issues with the RV10 and 20B. The aluminum plates would be nice but not in the budget. Bobby From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:17 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System photo of bottom Bobby, Can your ship handle the extra weight or are you thinking of replacing some of the iron side plate with alum plates such as those from "Racing Beat" ? Kelly troyer On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: Well, I found that like anything else the Plugs up installation has its pros and cons. However, the only real con was the lack of vendor support for Plugs Up. Having the exhaust outlet on the bottom simplified plumbing, also reduce chance of fuel from injectors falling directly on a hot exhaust. No problem with flooding the engine. I did it a few times, but 4-5 revs of the engine pumped all the excess fuel out the exhaust ports and of course the spark plug holes being on top did not collect fuel. It also provided room under the cowl for longer intake runners - don't know if that would be the case with the 20B, but assume it would. All in all, if I did it again, I would use plugs up everything else being the same. Oh, yes, much easier to change the spark plugs {} I did have to modify Tracy's PRSU mounting plate slightly - moving the starter position. Good luck on your decision, Bobby - more power is always hard to resist {) Ed From: Bobby J. Hughes Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 8:04 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System photo of bottom Looks like a good arrangement. I'm still on the fence as to installing the 20B I purchased a few weeks back. If I do make the swap I'm considering plugs up as an option. Bobby From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 4:50 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System photo of bottom Hi Bobby, Found this old photo of the bottom of the oil pan which may help. The blue fitting is naturally the drain hole at the lowest part of the sump. Ed From: Bobby J. Hughes Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 3:39 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System Thanks Ed. The standoff is not visible in the picture but I had guessed you did something similar. Any issues with sealing the oil pickup tube to the block off plate and front iron? Bobby From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 3:23 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System Hi Bobby, I believe the things you have the arrows pointing to are triangular shaped braces that support the oil sump to the oil pan. The are welded to top of sump and plate. To access the bolts in the area of the sump, I stood the 4"x 4" tubing I used for the sump off from the pan about 1 - 1 1/2". I did this by using a 1" x 1 1/2" rectangular tube (its end's plugged) welded to both the plate and the sump. Then 3/4" dia (I think around 6 holes) holes were drilled through plate, standoff and sump for the oil to return to the sump - probably best to drill holes before welding components together, but they can be drilled from the inside plate side - just make sure you get all shavings out. This stand-off also gave you access to around 3-4 pan bolts. Depending on your set up these may or may not be a pain to unscrew, but it can be done. The round tall blue tube served as oil fill tube and dip stick tube. It was threaded internally at the top and a threaded plug with a hole drilled in it for the dip stick was used. The aluminum tubes were coolant (front) and air/oil separator (which I took off after two years of flying with it and it collecting no oil, because the rotary simply was not spitting any out. Ed From: Bobby J. Hughes Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 2:57 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System Ed, I have a couple of question about your plug up installation. How do you access the oil pan bolts located behind the oil reservoir and allow for oil drain back? Also I see what looks like an additional tube (black arrow) in the attached photo. Can't figure out what it's for. Is it a support bracket? Thanks, Bobby Hughes _____ -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html _____ ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01D08DD1.AC9A77B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bobby,

 

I haven’t flown in a couple = of weeks.  I have been moving from hangar to hangar at the = airport.  I started out moving from GYI up at Sherman, = TX down to GPM at Grand Prairie.  This is a little closer but not = much.  I was in a patio hangar (also known as a car port) for a month, then = moved into a T hangar.  That hangar proved to be not much of an impediment to = rain, so I moved again.  This one is supposed to be dry, but to tell the = truth, it has rained so much the last week or so, I have not gone out to see if = it is leaking.  :>(

 

I still have that intermittent = hiccup, backfire, miss, what ever would best describe it.  Usually it is a = single event several minutes apart with random frequency.  Makes me think = about static buildup and occasional spark.  I have also been fighting a = persistent fuel leak at my fuel filter.  I think that is now fixed.  I = replaced my previous setup with the filters that Mark Steitle recommended.  = I taxied around the other day and had no leaks.

 

I think the various plumbing would = be the problem with mounting the 20B if you already had a mount for the = 13B.  I talked to the Cozy Girrls a while back about making a 20B plate that had the = rubber isolation mounting holes in the same location for the 13B.  They = didn’t seem to be real interested in the idea, but there is plenty of room, in = my plane at least, to mount the 20B so that the prop is in the same = location as the current setup.  That means that you could just build up the 20B = and set it on the existing mount and everything would line up.  You = would still have the intake, exhaust, fuel and water plumbing to do.  I = am still thinking about that or a turbo.  I think a turbo with no = intercooler would work if you kept the manifold pressure below 38 inches or so. =

 

Bill

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, = 2015 7:16 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System photo of = bottom

 

Bill

 

I picked mine up from another builder that was selling his = project due to medical issues. I'm not sure about making the swap.  I had = planned to replace my super charger with a turbo and still may take that route. Yes = both have their pros and cons.  My biggest issue with the 20B swap is = time and having to remake a lot of parts. 

 

Have you been able to fly lately and did you identify the source = of your engine stumble issue?

 

Bobby

Sent from my iPad


On May 13, 2015, at 7:04 PM, Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

So are a lot of folks upgrading to = the 20B?

Where are you finding your engines = and to those who don’t mind disclosing, what are you having to pay for a = 20B

 

I have considered either the 20B or = going to a turbo on the Renesis for my Lancair Legacy.  There are pros = and cons both way.

I would like to have an honest 250 = HP here and I really stress the honest.  I would like to see a 250-270 HP = takeoff at sea level, and a cruise at 8K ft of close to 200 = HP

 

Bill =

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, = 2015 12:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System photo of = bottom

 

Bobby,

 

    Curious as to the serial # (A,B,C,D XXX) of your 20B.........I purchased Rob = Johnson's

unused early (Before reinforced dowel area side plates) 20B = serial #A304 recently... He

purchased it in about 1997 for his Velocity and did not use it..........Amazing how small = a

package that 250+ hp is after removing about 100 lbs of turbos = and other unneeded parts 

from it........

 

 

Kelly Troyer

 

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Bobby J. Hughes <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly,

 

No weight and balance issues with the RV10 and = 20B. The aluminum plates would be nice but not in the budget. =

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, = 2015 11:17 AM


To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System photo of = bottom

 

Bobby,

   Can your ship handle the extra weight or are you thinking of replacing some = of

the = iron side plate with alum plates such as those from "Racing Beat" = ?

 

Kelly = troyer

 

On = Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Ed Anderson <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Well, I found that like anything else the Plugs up = installation has its pros and cons.

 

However, the only real con was the lack of vendor support = for Plugs Up.

 

Having the exhaust outlet on the bottom simplified = plumbing, also reduce chance of fuel from injectors falling directly on a hot = exhaust.  No problem with flooding the engine.  I did it a few times, but = 4—5 revs of the engine pumped all the excess fuel out the exhaust ports and = of course the spark plug holes being on top did not collect fuel.  It = also provided room under the cowl for longer intake runners – = don’t know if that would be the case with the 20B, but assume it = would.

 

All in all, if I did it again, I would use plugs up = everything else being the same.  Oh, yes, much easier to change the spark = plugs {<image001.gif>}

 

I did have to modify Tracy’s PRSU mounting plate slightly – moving the starter position.  =

 

Good luck on your decision, Bobby – more power is = always hard to resist = {<image001.gif>)

 

Ed

 

From: Bobby J. Hughes =

Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 8:04 = AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil = System photo of bottom

 

Looks like a good arrangement. I’m still on the = fence as to installing the 20B I purchased a few weeks back. If I do make the = swap I’m considering plugs up as an option. =

 

Bobby

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, = 2015 4:50 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil System photo of = bottom

 

Hi Bobby,

 

Found this old photo of the bottom of the oil pan which may help.  The blue fitting is naturally the drain hole at the lowest = part of the sump.

 

Ed

 

From: Bobby J. Hughes =

Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 3:39 = PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil = System

 

Thanks Ed. The standoff is not visible in the picture but = I had guessed  you did something similar. Any issues with sealing the oil = pickup tube to the block off plate and front = iron?

 

Bobby

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, = 2015 3:23 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil = System

 

Hi Bobby,

 

I believe the things you have the arrows pointing to are triangular shaped braces that support the oil sump to the oil pan.  = The are welded to top of sump and = plate.

 

To access the bolts in the area of the sump, I stood the = 4”x 4” tubing I used for the sump off from the pan about 1 – 1 1/2”.  I did this by using a 1” x 1 1/2” = rectangular tube (its end’s plugged) welded to both the plate and the = sump.  Then 3/4” dia  (I think around 6 holes) holes were drilled = through plate, standoff and sump for the oil to return to the sump – = probably best to drill holes before welding components together, but they can be = drilled from the inside plate side – just make sure you get all shavings out.  This stand-off also gave you access to around 3-4 pan = bolts.  Depending on your set up these may or may not be a pain  to = unscrew, but it can be done.

 

The round tall blue tube served as oil fill tube and dip = stick tube. It was threaded internally at the top and a threaded plug with a = hole drilled in it for the dip stick was = used.

 

The aluminum tubes were coolant (front) and air/oil = separator (which I took off after two years of flying with it and it collecting no = oil, because the rotary simply was not spitting any = out.

 

Ed

 

From: Bobby J. Hughes =

Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 2:57 = PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Questions for Ed Anderson- Plugs UP Oil = System

 

Ed,

I have a couple of question about your plug up = installation. How do you access the oil pan bolts located behind the oil reservoir and = allow for oil drain back? Also I see what looks like an additional tube (black = arrow) in the attached photo. Can’t figure out what it’s for. Is it = a  support bracket?

 

Thanks,

 

Bobby Hughes

 

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml

 

 



 

 



 

 

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