X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Jeff Whaley" Received: from hub026-NJ-7.exch026.serverdata.net ([206.225.166.170] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1c3) with ESMTPS id 7451199 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 10:14:35 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.225.166.170; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from MBX026-E1-NJ-2.exch026.domain.local ([10.240.14.52]) by HUB026-NJ-7.exch026.domain.local ([10.240.14.233]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 07:13:59 -0800 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] swirl / expansion tank configuration Thread-Topic: Re: [FlyRotary] swirl / expansion tank configuration Thread-Index: AdA8n17RUKn4z/SqTHqL5ylrTT+7CQ== Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 15:13:58 +0000 Message-ID: <234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EACEA8@mbx026-e1-nj-2.exch026.domain.local> Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [209.87.232.162] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EACEA8mbx026e1nj2exch_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EACEA8mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EACEA8mbx026e1nj2exch_" --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EACEA8mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James: Yes, we have discussed Evans Water and other items on this list before - th= e general consensus is there is no advantage to these products over 50/50 g= lycol/water. I think what Mazda used in the car is very similar to what we are using in = aircraft applications except we have modified our coolant systems (water pu= mp outlet and inlets) largely because we use non-standard radiators and als= o in many cases to reduce overall engine height . The connections you have= - we don't, so we made our own. The air-bleed line in my system is normally connected to the intake manifol= d and protrudes up out of the iron casting closest to the transmission. Th= e other line in my diagram is a connection added to a custom filler port ab= ove my water pump outlet. Both lines are effectively doing the same job - = removing trapped air from the block; in level flight they are both about th= e same height above the block but during climb and typically highest engine= performance, the block connection is at the front and therefore the highes= t point. The stock Mazda water pump housing had a filler neck/pressure cap= and overflow port built into it; I had to remove all that to turn the outl= et port 90 degrees. Jeff From: James R. Osborn Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] swirl / expansion tank configuration Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:38:23 -0800 To: Rotary motors in aircraft [Message Header] [Undecoded Message] You guys are really confusing me! Granted all my rotary work so far is on = my car. Once upon a time, my car had an AST (air separator tank). It was = a small round job next to the radiator, maybe 3 inches OD, 3 or 4 inches ta= ll. I'm thinking it served similar purposes to the swirl tank in your desi= gns? Mazda made it of plastic and it had a nasty tendency to burst after a= ging in the heat soaked engine bay long enough. Most Rx-7 owners including= myself, removed the AST system - others replaced it with aftermarket alumi= num versions. As I recall it had a tube at the bottom that went downwards = to an extra nipple on the bottom of the radiator, but I forget where the in= put came from. I am wondering how this system compares to the ones you are= describing? Where is the pump in the last figure (Steve vs Jeff)? And wh= ere is the "airbleed hose" bleeding air from? Is the idea that it is just = a high point in the system that continuously is drawing out any air bubbles= that get created or trapped in the system? I have to ask another related question - why not use Evans waterless coolan= t? I think we discussed it a bit before. It seems like the expansion/cont= raction is a lot smaller because it boils at a much higher temperature than= standard coolant/water mix. I run this in my car now, but my car is a pro= ject car that hasn't gotten enough serious abuse to have more opinions on t= he efficacy of Evans. But I believe that Rotax engines use it - so aircraf= t use is not beyond the pale. I am just wondering if all this (seeming) co= mplexity in the cooling system arrangement would be needed if a waterless c= oolant were used. - James This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EACEA8mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi James:

Yes, we have discussed Evans Water and other items o= n this list before – the general consensus is there is no advantage t= o these products over 50/50 glycol/water.

I think what Mazda used in the car is very similar t= o what we are using in aircraft applications except we have modified our co= olant systems (water pump outlet and inlets) largely because we use non-sta= ndard radiators and also in many cases to reduce overall engine height .  The connections you have - we don&= #8217;t, so we made our own.

The air-bleed line in my system is normally connecte= d to the intake manifold and protrudes up out of the iron casting closest t= o the transmission.  The other line in my diagram is a connection adde= d to a custom filler port above my water pump outlet.  Both lines are effectively doing the same job – r= emoving trapped air from the block; in level flight they are both about the= same height above the block but during climb and typically highest engine = performance, the block connection is at the front and therefore the highest point.  The stock Mazda water pump ho= using had a filler neck/pressure cap and overflow port built into it; I had= to remove all that to turn the outlet port 90 degrees.

Jeff

 

From:

James R. Osborn <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net>

Subject:

Re: [FlyRotary] swirl / expansion ta= nk configuration

Date:

Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:38:23 -0800=

To:

Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net>

3D"Message

You guys are really confusing me! &n= bsp;Granted all my rotary work so far is on my car.  Once upon a time,= my car had an AST (air separator tank).  It was a small round job next to the radiator, maybe 3 inches OD, 3 or 4 inches tall.  I’= ;m thinking it served similar purposes to the swirl tank in your designs? &= nbsp;Mazda made it of plastic and it had a nasty tendency to burst after ag= ing in the heat soaked engine bay long enough.  Most Rx-7 owners including myself, removed the AST system - others replaced it = with aftermarket aluminum versions.  As I recall it had a tube at the = bottom that went downwards to an extra nipple on the bottom of the radiator= , but I forget where the input came from.  I am wondering how this system compares to the ones you are describi= ng?  Where is the pump in the last figure (Steve vs Jeff)?  And w= here is the “airbleed hose” bleeding air from?  Is the ide= a that it is just a high point in the system that continuously is drawing out any air bubbles that get created or trapped in the system?

 

I have to ask another related questi= on - why not use Evans waterless coolant?  I think we discussed it a b= it before.  It seems like the expansion/contraction is a lot smaller because it boils at a much higher temperature than standard coolan= t/water mix.  I run this in my car now, but my car is a project car th= at hasn’t gotten enough serious abuse to have more opinions on the ef= ficacy of Evans.  But I believe that Rotax engines use it - so aircraft use is not beyond the pale.  I am just w= ondering if all this (seeming) complexity in the cooling system arrangement= would be needed if a waterless coolant were used.

 

— James

 

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the origin= al message. Thank you. --_000_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EACEA8mbx026e1nj2exch_-- --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EACEA8mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="image001.gif" Content-Description: image001.gif Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.gif"; size=849; creation-date="Fri, 30 Jan 2015 15:13:58 GMT"; modification-date="Fri, 30 Jan 2015 15:13:58 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAINgDxCRw4 EAC+fwgTIjT4DwCAAwIXHlSYkKHDhxEZUpTYEONEjRstOoR4ECRFkSQ5bux4saXDgAA7 --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EACEA8mbx026e1nj2exch_ Content-Type: image/gif; name="image002.gif" Content-Description: image002.gif Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image002.gif"; size=857; creation-date="Fri, 30 Jan 2015 15:13:58 GMT"; modification-date="Fri, 30 Jan 2015 15:13:58 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhCgANAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8AAAAAAAKgAAVQAAfwAA qgAA1AAqAAAqKgAqVQAqfwAqqgAq1ABVAABVKgBVVQBVfwBVqgBV1AB/AAB/KgB/VQB/fwB/qgB/ 1ACqAACqKgCqVQCqfwCqqgCq1ADUAADUKgDUVQDUfwDUqgDU1CoAACoAKioAVSoAfyoAqioA1Coq ACoqKioqVSoqfyoqqioq1CpVACpVKipVVSpVfypVqipV1Cp/ACp/Kip/VSp/fyp/qip/1CqqACqq KiqqVSqqfyqqqiqq1CrUACrUKirUVSrUfyrUqirU1FUAAFUAKlUAVVUAf1UAqlUA1FUqAFUqKlUq VVUqf1UqqlUq1FVVAFVVKlVVVVVVf1VVqlVV1FV/AFV/KlV/VVV/f1V/qlV/1FWqAFWqKlWqVVWq f1WqqlWq1FXUAFXUKlXUVVXUf1XUqlXU1H8AAH8AKn8AVX8Af38Aqn8A1H8qAH8qKn8qVX8qf38q qn8q1H9VAH9VKn9VVX9Vf39Vqn9V1H9/AH9/Kn9/VX9/f39/qn9/1H+qAH+qKn+qVX+qf3+qqn+q 1H/UAH/UKn/UVX/Uf3/Uqn/U1KoAAKoAKqoAVaoAf6oAqqoA1KoqAKoqKqoqVaoqf6oqqqoq1KpV AKpVKqpVVapVf6pVqqpV1Kp/AKp/Kqp/Vap/f6p/qqp/1KqqAKqqKqqqVaqqf6qqqqqq1KrUAKrU KqrUVarUf6rUqqrU1NQAANQAKtQAVdQAf9QAqtQA1NQqANQqKtQqVdQqf9QqqtQq1NRVANRVKtRV VdRVf9RVqtRV1NR/ANR/KtR/VdR/f9R/qtR/1NSqANSqKtSqVdSqf9SqqtSq1NTUANTUKtTUVdTU f9TUqtTU1AAAAAwMDBkZGSYmJjMzMz8/P0xMTFlZWWZmZnJycn9/f4yMjJmZmaWlpbKysr+/v8zM zNjY2OXl5fLy8v/78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////ywAAAAACgANAAAIPgDxCRw4 EAC+fwcQKjxgMCHDhAD+GUQYEcDDhhIzVjwIkSJDfA8zQjxYUWRDixVHmnSI0aHCiS5ZAphJs2ZA ADs= --_005_234B758DE9A64449BEB6BB5D1345CA7A48EACEA8mbx026e1nj2exch_--