X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Charlie England" Received: from mail-ob0-f174.google.com ([209.85.214.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1c2) with ESMTPS id 7438386 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 22:50:30 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.174; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-ob0-f174.google.com with SMTP id gq1so11486379obb.5 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 19:49:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type; bh=o/fV8AGMenp0eriC9mgI7c9nOJeSZdy4P7wAP7zIvyY=; b=x0yMzf21PaN+XUD1iHpcQMl4nTni32EkUQVaO4haFmgNuXiuGtAXLaH4wAXrLgBHnu NKHUB35Q2wLPcs88lHl3aqDE9piETx9HXpuMeUpPc7Ts2KhypReue5LJDPIgiunYUs8n N7xxMrv1u7rSr9ItuTTeXWbp8WWBNCdwQfVcLntakyl7wZ/oDjBgduT/4+7ELyOzUjOp U/2IU+u8UExTvqhC3JbsDR1k8YmBv4Nw0DQ7B7BpgAsAW4sntcDc/IbeT4K734saj9Z3 C7RMPfDV5iu3VnXs5x7j1JmUAVHt4+q7Ua9BbesJDKt/WWKkO5msjrJ4oefPtDP2sPtA jMzA== X-Received: by 10.202.66.7 with SMTP id p7mr4766648oia.33.1422330596312; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 19:49:56 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from ?IPv6:2602:306:25fa:a369:81f9:3d70:d58d:609d? ([2602:306:25fa:a369:81f9:3d70:d58d:609d]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id mp3sm7440obb.25.2015.01.26.19.49.53 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 26 Jan 2015 19:49:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54C70AEA.7040408@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 21:50:02 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: My next engine References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010500000502010101010509" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010500000502010101010509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not to mention the risk of hanging the apex seal on the slot, which is parallel to the seal. On 1/26/2015 3:23 PM, James R. Osborn wrote: > I agree with Ernie. However I don’t think it is PEAK pressure in the > exhaust chamber as it is most of the way through the expansion stroke > by the time the apex seal crosses the plug hole - the exhaust port is > about to open whether it is a side port (rx8) or peripheral port > (rx7). It is probably higher pressure than the intake chamber, but > not by a whole lot. > > I think the way it is currently implemented (as a hole rather than a > slot) leads to some EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) which isn’t > supposed to be a bad thing, at least for emissions. I imagine however > that the bad thing about making it a slot is it would be more > difficult for the F/A mixture to get into the spark plug antechamber, > and it also might affect the flame front propagation out of the > antechamber. Both of these things would be bad for a rotary, IMHO. > > — James > > >> On Jan 26, 2015, at 6:02 AM, Ernest Christley >> > wrote: >> >> You are correct, Jeff. That is what he is saying. The problem is, >> he is wrong. When the apex seal is crossing the plug hole, there is >> no compression on the intake side yet (it's actually below ambient >> for an NA engine) and the exhaust side is at it's most extreme >> pressure. Look at the volume of the chambers. The intake side has >> just finished pulling F/A mixture in, the exhaust side has been >> ignited and is providing the power pulse. If anything, some burnt >> mixture from the previous burn is going to be pushed BACK into the >> upcoming one. >> >> In fact, providing more of a slot might just blow the F/A mixture >> away from the apex seal and solve half of the quenching problem. >> >> >> On Monday, January 26, 2015 8:50 AM, Jeff Whaley >> > wrote: >> >> >> What he’s saying is the spark plug holes inside the rotor housing are >> too large (much larger than apex seal width) so at peak compression >> and just prior to combustion, a percentage of compressed air/fuel >> mixture enters the spark plug hole and leaks ahead of the apex seal >> into the exhaust cycle, creating spontaneous combustion in the >> exhaust and higher exhaust temperature. His theory is if the holes >> were slots, similar in width to an apex seal this would stop any >> leakage into the exhaust cycle – more complete combustion = higher >> efficiency – don’t put air fuel into the exhaust for spontaneous >> combustion. >> Jeff >> From: >> >> Bill Bradburry > > >> Subject: >> >> RE: [FlyRotary] My next engine >> Date: >> >> Sat, 24 Jan 2015 23:03:22 -0600 >> To: >> >> 'Rotary motors in aircraft' > > >> >> >> Message Header >> >> >> Undecoded Message >> >> >> What is the consensus about these slots? >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3pCLjHZmhM >> >> >> Bill >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] >> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 7:59 PM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] My next engine >> >> Folks, >> >> R12 12 Rotor Engine on the Dyno short version >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcgg7w6TFQc >> >> Bob Tilley >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for >> the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. >> Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have >> received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that >> we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original >> message. Thank you. > --------------010500000502010101010509 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Not to mention the risk of hanging the apex seal on the slot, which is parallel to the seal.

On 1/26/2015 3:23 PM, James R. Osborn wrote:
I agree with Ernie.  However I don’t think it is PEAK pressure in the exhaust chamber as it is most of the way through the expansion stroke by the time the apex seal crosses the plug hole - the exhaust port is about to open whether it is a side port (rx8) or peripheral port (rx7).  It is probably higher pressure than the intake chamber, but not by a whole lot.

I think the way it is currently implemented (as a hole rather than a slot) leads to some EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) which isn’t supposed to be a bad thing, at least for emissions.  I imagine however that the bad thing about making it a slot is it would be more difficult for the F/A mixture to get into the spark plug antechamber, and it also might affect the flame front propagation out of the antechamber.  Both of these things would be bad for a rotary, IMHO.

— James


On Jan 26, 2015, at 6:02 AM, Ernest Christley <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

You are correct, Jeff.  That is what he is saying.  The problem is, he is wrong.  When the apex seal is crossing the plug hole, there is no compression on the intake side yet (it's actually below ambient for an NA engine) and the exhaust side is at it's most extreme pressure.  Look at the volume of the chambers.  The intake side has just finished pulling F/A mixture in, the exhaust side has been ignited and is providing the power pulse.  If anything, some burnt mixture from the previous burn is going to be pushed BACK into the upcoming one.  

In fact, providing more of a slot might just blow the F/A mixture away from the apex seal and solve half of the quenching problem.


On Monday, January 26, 2015 8:50 AM, Jeff Whaley <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


What he’s saying is the spark plug holes inside the rotor housing are too large (much larger than apex seal width) so at peak compression and just prior to combustion, a percentage of compressed air/fuel mixture enters the spark plug hole and leaks ahead of the apex seal into the exhaust cycle, creating spontaneous combustion in the exhaust and higher exhaust temperature.  His theory is if the holes were slots, similar in width to an apex seal this would stop any leakage into the exhaust cycle – more complete combustion = higher efficiency – don’t put air fuel into the exhaust for spontaneous combustion.
Jeff 
 
From:
Bill Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject:
RE: [FlyRotary] My next engine
Date:
Sat, 24 Jan 2015 23:03:22 -0600
To:
'Rotary motors in aircraft' <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Message Header

Undecoded Message
What is the consensus about these slots?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3pCLjHZmhM


Bill 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 7:59 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] My next engine

Folks,

R12 12 Rotor Engine on the Dyno short version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcgg7w6TFQc

Bob Tilley

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
 
This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.


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