X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Mark Steitle" Received: from mail-wg0-f52.google.com ([74.125.82.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1c2) with ESMTPS id 7350775 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 13 Dec 2014 14:45:01 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by mail-wg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id x12so11549390wgg.25 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:44:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ln6D+f5X07Z6KmimIeMIUckyYKtzc6NnRJJcECfENX8=; b=C92gVQKShHVOAbt37ka4+PEnhYyBoudF2LZpB4n//1mWezkHkdvJYMKNsDZyMraVQo IvSrIoLSEfAm7QtwUjvcAoiBAR4ezf/jS5k5a2Ko+bX4JXs9QYJKKvula2+AXgN5W4pn AyXe8fQoyplAoqBCvvo/cyW8BthkUGExlvL+d4G9kpYzp+B4xRa/mu1sGsx6EtOLVVTM HZmN37wa4IgBc4yCm/D1OLYh7JBKIKBOJ3J7DbWb6ebhq1hMCAFwbeRzoskYix17d/if RdY0K7NTw5UjfwU1tv8VtwIch5ts0+uACUNB9B2DV3mqOorWx24uaT+YiD+r+o2AMUup qerw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.103.162 with SMTP id fx2mr8142878wib.42.1418499867560; Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:44:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.27.48.12 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:44:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:44:27 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: smoke system control, was: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: the List To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04428d12b85297050a1e3c0f --f46d04428d12b85297050a1e3c0f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dave, Do I detect a bit of "rotor envy"? ;-) Mark On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 12:56 PM, David Leonard wrote: > > Ha! Mark, you caught me - or rather I forgot about your flying p-port. > Sorry. Sure wish I had a p-port 3-rotor. :-) > > Dave Leonard > > > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Mark Steitle < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> David, >> >> You're welcome to drop in to Lockhart, TX any time and take a look at my >> p-port 3-rotor Lancair ES. It reliably produces loads of horsepower, while >> cruising at over 200 mph on about 11.5 gph. And yes, it is loud. Any >> "quiet" mufflers I've tried have increased EGT's while reducing top speed, >> or didn't last long enough to find out how well it worked. I'm still >> running a "DNA" muffler (made in Canada). >> >> Mark S. >> >> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:17 AM, David Leonard < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> In a perfect world I would have a turbo p-port 3-rotor. :-) >>> >>> I sort of ended up with a turbo because it was just sitting there (came >>> with my '91 turbo engine) so I decided to try it on for size and it never >>> went away. I am glad I have it, but the 3-rotor and/or p-port would have >>> been nice options. The turbo quiets things down just enough to be >>> tolerable, but my formation friends can hear me when I am flying on their >>> wing... largely because the sound is different, but it is also a little >>> louder I think. But is is quieter than a n/a rotary engine by just enough >>> to matter. >>> >>> The turbo is not particularly less expensive than a p-port in the long >>> run. By the time I got most of the issues worked out I am in for over $5k >>> in turbo rebuilds and non-fitting manifolds etc. Even when cared for >>> correctly (keeping EGT down), they are only going to last 1000 hrs or so >>> (who knows) and each rebuild costs $1k. In the long run though, these >>> costs or the costs of a p-port or 3-rotor are trivial when compared with >>> the cost of operating an aircraft. If my turbo has cost me $5/hr, then >>> Avionics have cost $20/hr, gas has been $45/hr and the hangar has been >>> about $50/hr. Dont let the relatively small cost differences sway your >>> decision here. >>> >>> The turbo definitely adds much more power than p-port would, both down >>> low and up high. And with the p-port the sound issue is not trivial if >>> your are going to be maximizing the power output. Lets put it this way, you >>> wont find me ever removing my turbo. >>> >>> But, if I were to do it again, I would probably go with a 3-rotor. >>> Pretty close to the same power as the turbo, weighs a little more but is >>> more reliable and efficient. There have been many examples of successfully >>> (and continued) flying of turbos and 3-rotors. But p-ports in aircraft are >>> sort of like UFOs: you hear a lot about them, but you never really see one. >>> >>> Not to say that p-port isn't the best option. It is light weight, >>> simple (in a sense), reliable, efficient, lower drag, and brings the power >>> of a 2-rotor right where you need it for something like an RV. >>> >>> I hope this discussion has be helpful (yea right!). >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Neil Unger >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Dave, >>>> A few of us in OZ were discussing your engine with full >>>> authority (Called ignorance) and wondered what engine you have and what >>>> your thoughts are re the turbo. Is it worth the effort?? Just looking to >>>> save the P port cost, and get a slight HP boost, with the muffler problem >>>> eliminated. Does it actually work that way, or is it too much grief? Neil. >>>> >>>> *From:* David Leonard >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 11, 2014 8:04 AM >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: smoke system control, was: Re: [FlyRotary] >>>> Re: the List >>>> >>>> everyone agrees that although the sound of my rotary is a cry for >>>> attention, It does make the best smoke of the group. >>>> >>>> Here is a picture of the pump placement >>>> >>>> David Leonard >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 10:38 AM, David Leonard < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have smoke on my plane, I just used the same pump as the EFI pump >>>>> that Tracy used to sell. it weighs less than a pound and puts out about >>>>> the right flow rate. Built in check valve. I have not problem with >>>>> leaking. instant cutoff. Tank is in the wing and pump in the wing root >>>>> which keeps the system and oil smell out of the baggage area. >>>>> >>>>> The rotary makes nice hot exhaust which is great for supporting a lot >>>>> of oil without leaving a residue (except for the 2-stroke oil) >>>>> >>>>> Dave Leonard >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Charlie England < >>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1417917551-356-672&action=search >>>>>> >>>>>> This is made to control fuel to primer ports on a carb'd engine, but >>>>>> would probably do the job. No idea how well it would survive the heat of >>>>>> the engine compartment, where it would need to be for a quick/clean cutoff. >>>>>> Maybe mounted low on the firewall away from the air exit, with the lines >>>>>> running uphill to the smoke port on the exhaust? >>>>>> >>>>>> Charlie >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12/6/2014 2:59 PM, hoursaway1 wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Yep, I'm here in Michigan doing holiday stuff & visiting kids/grand >>>>>> kids. also am working on a smoke sys. for the RV6A Rotary, want min. 3 >>>>>> gal., portable, useing automotive fuel pump, looking for a solinoid valve >>>>>> control for flow ( no dribbling soft smoke trail ). David R. Cook >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From: *"Fly rotary blog, e-mail" mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net >>>>>> >>>>>> *To: *"Fly rotary blog, e-mail" mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net >>>>>> >>>>>> *Sent: *Friday, December 5, 2014 10:10:54 PM >>>>>> *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: the List >>>>>> >>>>>> The last message that I seem to have received from the list was >>>>>> 11/19. this >>>>>> is a test to see if I have inadvertently been dropped. >>>>>> Bill Schertz >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>>> >>> >> --f46d04428d12b85297050a1e3c0f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave,

Do I detect a bit of "ro= tor envy"?=A0 ;-)

Mark

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 12:56 PM, David Le= onard <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Ha!=A0 Mark, you caught me - or rather I forgot= about your flying p-port.=A0 Sorry.=A0=A0Sure wish I had a p-port 3-rotor.= =A0 :-)
=A0
Dave Leonard
=A0

=A0
On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Mark Steitle <= span dir=3D"ltr"><flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=20
David,
=A0
You're welcome to drop in to Lockhart, TX any time and take a look= at my p-port 3-rotor Lancair ES.=A0 It reliably produces=A0loads of=A0hors= epower,=A0while cruising at over 200 mph on about 11.5 gph.=A0 And yes, it = is loud.=A0 Any "quiet" mufflers I've tried have increased EG= T's=A0while reducing top speed, or didn't last long enough to find = out how well it worked.=A0 I'm still running=A0a "DNA" muffle= r (made in Canada).=A0
=A0
Mark S.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 9:17 AM, David Leonard <= span dir=3D"ltr"><flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
In a perfect world I would have a turbo p-port 3-rotor. :-= )=20

I sort of ended up with a turbo because it was just sitting there (cam= e with my '91 turbo engine) so I decided to try it on for size and it n= ever went away.=A0 I am glad I have it, but the 3-rotor and/or p-port would= have been nice options.=A0 The turbo quiets things down just enough to be = tolerable, but my formation friends can hear me when I am flying on their w= ing... =A0largely because the sound is different, but it is also a little l= ouder I think.=A0 But is is quieter than a n/a rotary engine by just enough= to matter.=20

The turbo is not particularly less expensive than a p-port in the long= run.=A0 By the time I got most of the issues worked out I am in for over $= 5k in turbo rebuilds and non-fitting manifolds etc.=A0 Even when cared for = correctly (keeping EGT down), they are only going to last 1000 hrs or so (w= ho knows) and each rebuild costs $1k.=A0 In the long run though, these cost= s or the costs of a p-port or 3-rotor are trivial when compared with the co= st of operating an aircraft.=A0 If my turbo has cost me $5/hr, then Avionic= s have cost $20/hr, gas has been $45/hr and the hangar has been about $50/h= r.=A0 Dont let the relatively small cost differences sway your decision her= e.

The turbo definitely adds much more power than p-port would, both down= low and up high.=A0 And with the p-port the sound issue is not trivial if = your are going to be maximizing the power output. Lets put it this way, you= wont find me ever removing my turbo.

But, if I were to do it again, I would probably go with a 3-rotor.=A0 = Pretty close to the same power as the turbo, weighs a little more but is mo= re reliable and efficient.=A0 There have been many examples of successfully= (and continued) flying of turbos and 3-rotors.=A0 But p-ports in aircraft = are sort of like UFOs: =A0you hear a lot about them, but you never really s= ee one.

Not to say that p-port isn't the best option.=A0 It is light weigh= t, simple (in a sense), reliable, efficient, lower drag, and brings the pow= er of a 2-rotor right where you need it for something like an RV.

I hope this discussion has be helpful (yea right!).

Dave Leonard


On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Neil Unger <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Dave,
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 A few of us in OZ were discussing yo= ur engine with full authority (Called ignorance) and wondered what engine y= ou have and what your thoughts are re the turbo.=A0 Is it worth the effort?= ?=A0 Just looking to save the P port cost, and get a slight HP boost, with = the muffler problem eliminated.=A0 Does it actually work that way, or is it= too much grief?=A0 Neil.
=A0
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 8:04 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= /div>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: smoke system control, was: Re: [FlyRot= ary] Re: the List
=A0
everyone agrees that although the sound of my rotary is a = cry for attention, It does make the best smoke of the group.=20
=A0
Here is a picture of the pump placement
=A0
David Leonard
=A0
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 10:38 AM, David Le= onard <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I have smoke on my plane, I just used the same pump as the= EFI pump that Tracy used to sell.=A0 it weighs less than a pound and puts = out about the right flow rate.=A0 Built in check valve.=A0 I have not probl= em with leaking. instant cutoff.=A0 Tank is in the wing and pump in the win= g root which keeps the system and oil smell out of the baggage area.=20
=A0
The rotary makes nice hot exhaust which is great for supporting a lot = of oil without leaving a residue (except for the 2-stroke oil)
=A0
Dave Leonard
=A0
On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Charlie En= gland <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
http://www.vansaircraf= t.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=3D1417917551-356-672&action=3Dsearch<= br>
This is made to control fuel to primer ports on a carb'd engine,= but would probably do the job. No idea how well it would survive the heat = of the engine compartment, where it would need to be for a quick/clean cuto= ff. Maybe mounted low on the firewall away from the air exit, with the line= s running uphill to the smoke port on the exhaust?

Charlie

On= 12/6/2014 2:59 PM, hoursaway1 wrote:
Yep, I'm here in Michigan doing holiday stuff & visiting kids/= grand kids.=A0 also am working on a smoke sys. for the RV6A Rotary, want mi= n. 3 gal., portable, useing automotive fuel pump, looking for a solinoid va= lve control for flow ( no dribbling soft smoke trail ).=A0 David R. Cook
=A0
=A0
Fro= m: "Fly rotary blog, e-mail" mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net
= To: "Fly rotary blog, e-mail" mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net=
Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 10:10:54 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: the List
=A0
The last message that I seem to have received from the list w= as 11/19. this
is a test to see if I have inadvertently been dropped.Bill Schertz

=A0

--
Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/Archive and UnSub:=A0=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/l= ists/flyrotary/List.html

=A0

--
Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=A0=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


<= /blockquote>

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