X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Neil Unger" Received: from nskntmtas01p.mx.bigpond.com ([61.9.168.137] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1c1) with ESMTP id 7341343 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 15:03:46 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=61.9.168.137; envelope-from=neil.unger@bigpond.com Received: from nskntcmgw06p ([61.9.169.166]) by nskntmtas01p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20141211200310.EHEO1388.nskntmtas01p.mx.bigpond.com@nskntcmgw06p> for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 20:03:10 +0000 Received: from UserPC ([124.184.178.27]) by nskntcmgw06p with BigPond Outbound id SL351p00D0brNdo01L368R; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 20:03:10 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=RsdH3VaK c=1 sm=1 a=tXvUOQ5NgiG5vkqmrBoo2A==:17 a=1IlZJK9HAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=y1BBXd_fAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ZAXnzlsAATGk6zf46k0A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Tr8nuKu5vpAA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=8ULJh34OwFV1I5SGh1IA:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=7JDjyCPPFB0zIniW:21 a=tXvUOQ5NgiG5vkqmrBoo2A==:117 Message-ID: To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: smoke system control, was: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: the List Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 07:02:40 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01D015D9.9E7D4240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01D015D9.9E7D4240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks dave, just trying to get rid of my draggy muffler and get all = back into the cowl. Did wonder about the EGT as I can easily get 1850 F = at full power. Keep waiting for something to melt. About to fine up = the prop to get at least 7350 rpm on the ground static as only getting = 6800 currently which is down in the power range. Neil. From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 2:17 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: smoke system control, was: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: = the List In a perfect world I would have a turbo p-port 3-rotor. :-)=20 I sort of ended up with a turbo because it was just sitting there (came = with my '91 turbo engine) so I decided to try it on for size and it = never went away. I am glad I have it, but the 3-rotor and/or p-port = would have been nice options. The turbo quiets things down just enough = to be tolerable, but my formation friends can hear me when I am flying = on their wing... largely because the sound is different, but it is also = a little louder I think. But is is quieter than a n/a rotary engine by = just enough to matter.=20 The turbo is not particularly less expensive than a p-port in the long = run. By the time I got most of the issues worked out I am in for over = $5k in turbo rebuilds and non-fitting manifolds etc. Even when cared = for correctly (keeping EGT down), they are only going to last 1000 hrs = or so (who knows) and each rebuild costs $1k. In the long run though, = these costs or the costs of a p-port or 3-rotor are trivial when = compared with the cost of operating an aircraft. If my turbo has cost = me $5/hr, then Avionics have cost $20/hr, gas has been $45/hr and the = hangar has been about $50/hr. Dont let the relatively small cost = differences sway your decision here. The turbo definitely adds much more power than p-port would, both down = low and up high. And with the p-port the sound issue is not trivial if = your are going to be maximizing the power output. Lets put it this way, = you wont find me ever removing my turbo. But, if I were to do it again, I would probably go with a 3-rotor. = Pretty close to the same power as the turbo, weighs a little more but is = more reliable and efficient. There have been many examples of = successfully (and continued) flying of turbos and 3-rotors. But p-ports = in aircraft are sort of like UFOs: you hear a lot about them, but you = never really see one. Not to say that p-port isn't the best option. It is light weight, = simple (in a sense), reliable, efficient, lower drag, and brings the = power of a 2-rotor right where you need it for something like an RV. I hope this discussion has be helpful (yea right!). Dave Leonard On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Neil Unger = wrote: Dave, A few of us in OZ were discussing your engine with full = authority (Called ignorance) and wondered what engine you have and what = your thoughts are re the turbo. Is it worth the effort?? Just looking = to save the P port cost, and get a slight HP boost, with the muffler = problem eliminated. Does it actually work that way, or is it too much = grief? Neil. From: David Leonard=20 Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 8:04 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: smoke system control, was: Re: [FlyRotary] = Re: the List everyone agrees that although the sound of my rotary is a cry for = attention, It does make the best smoke of the group.=20 Here is a picture of the pump placement David Leonard On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 10:38 AM, David Leonard = wrote: I have smoke on my plane, I just used the same pump as the EFI pump = that Tracy used to sell. it weighs less than a pound and puts out about = the right flow rate. Built in check valve. I have not problem with = leaking. instant cutoff. Tank is in the wing and pump in the wing root = which keeps the system and oil smell out of the baggage area.=20 The rotary makes nice hot exhaust which is great for supporting a = lot of oil without leaving a residue (except for the 2-stroke oil) Dave Leonard On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Charlie England = wrote: = http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=3D1417917551-356-672&= action=3Dsearch This is made to control fuel to primer ports on a carb'd engine, = but would probably do the job. No idea how well it would survive the = heat of the engine compartment, where it would need to be for a = quick/clean cutoff. Maybe mounted low on the firewall away from the air = exit, with the lines running uphill to the smoke port on the exhaust? Charlie On 12/6/2014 2:59 PM, hoursaway1 wrote: Yep, I'm here in Michigan doing holiday stuff & visiting = kids/grand kids. also am working on a smoke sys. for the RV6A Rotary, = want min. 3 gal., portable, useing automotive fuel pump, looking for a = solinoid valve control for flow ( no dribbling soft smoke trail ). = David R. Cook ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Fly rotary blog, e-mail" = mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net To: "Fly rotary blog, e-mail" mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 10:10:54 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: the List The last message that I seem to have received from the list was = 11/19. this=20 is a test to see if I have inadvertently been dropped. Bill Schertz -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01D015D9.9E7D4240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks dave,  just trying to get rid of my draggy muffler and = get all=20 back into the cowl.  Did wonder about the EGT as I can easily get = 1850 F at=20 full power.  Keep waiting for something to melt.  About to = fine up the=20 prop to get at least 7350 rpm on the ground static as only getting 6800=20 currently which is down in the power range.  Neil.
 
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 2:17 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: smoke system control, was: Re: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: the List
 
In a perfect world I would have a turbo p-port 3-rotor. = :-)=20
 
I sort of ended up with a turbo because it was just sitting there = (came=20 with my '91 turbo engine) so I decided to try it on for size and it = never went=20 away.  I am glad I have it, but the 3-rotor and/or p-port would = have been=20 nice options.  The turbo quiets things down just enough to be = tolerable,=20 but my formation friends can hear me when I am flying on their = wing... =20 largely because the sound is different, but it is also a little louder I = think.  But is is quieter than a n/a rotary engine by just enough = to=20 matter.=20
 
The turbo is not particularly less expensive than a p-port in the = long=20 run.  By the time I got most of the issues worked out I am in for = over $5k=20 in turbo rebuilds and non-fitting manifolds etc.  Even when cared = for=20 correctly (keeping EGT down), they are only going to last 1000 hrs or so = (who=20 knows) and each rebuild costs $1k.  In the long run though, these = costs or=20 the costs of a p-port or 3-rotor are trivial when compared with the cost = of=20 operating an aircraft.  If my turbo has cost me $5/hr, then = Avionics have=20 cost $20/hr, gas has been $45/hr and the hangar has been about = $50/hr. =20 Dont let the relatively small cost differences sway your decision = here.
 
The turbo definitely adds much more power than p-port would, both = down low=20 and up high.  And with the p-port the sound issue is not trivial if = your=20 are going to be maximizing the power output. Lets put it this way, you = wont find=20 me ever removing my turbo.
 
But, if I were to do it again, I would probably go with a = 3-rotor. =20 Pretty close to the same power as the turbo, weighs a little more but is = more=20 reliable and efficient.  There have been many examples of = successfully (and=20 continued) flying of turbos and 3-rotors.  But p-ports in aircraft = are sort=20 of like UFOs:  you hear a lot about them, but you never really see=20 one.
 
Not to say that p-port isn't the best option.  It is light = weight,=20 simple (in a sense), reliable, efficient, lower drag, and brings the = power of a=20 2-rotor right where you need it for something like an RV.
 
I hope this discussion has be helpful (yea right!).
 
Dave Leonard
 
 
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Neil Unger = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Dave,
=
            = A few=20 of us in OZ were discussing your engine with full authority (Called = ignorance)=20 and wondered what engine you have and what your thoughts are re the=20 turbo.  Is it worth the effort??  Just looking to save the P = port=20 cost, and get a slight HP boost, with the muffler problem = eliminated. =20 Does it actually work that way, or is it too much grief?  = Neil.
 
From: David = Leonard=20
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 8:04 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: smoke system control, was: Re:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: the List
 
everyone agrees that although the sound of my rotary is = a cry for=20 attention, It does make the best smoke of the group.=20
 
Here is a picture of the pump placement
 
David Leonard
 
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 10:38 AM, David = Leonard=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
I have smoke on my plane, I just used the same pump = as the EFI=20 pump that Tracy used to sell.  it weighs less than a pound and = puts out=20 about the right flow rate.  Built in check valve.  I have = not=20 problem with leaking. instant cutoff.  Tank is in the wing and = pump in=20 the wing root which keeps the system and oil smell out of the = baggage area.=20
 
The rotary makes nice hot exhaust which is great for supporting = a lot=20 of oil without leaving a residue (except for the 2-stroke oil)
 
Dave Leonard
 
On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 6:05 PM, = Charlie England=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=3D141= 7917551-356-672&action=3Dsearch

This=20 is made to control fuel to primer ports on a carb'd engine, but = would=20 probably do the job. No idea how well it would survive the heat of = the=20 engine compartment, where it would need to be for a quick/clean = cutoff.=20 Maybe mounted low on the firewall away from the air exit, with the = lines=20 running uphill to the smoke port on the = exhaust?

Charlie

On=20 12/6/2014 2:59 PM, hoursaway1 wrote:
Yep, I'm here in Michigan doing holiday stuff & = visiting=20 kids/grand kids.  also am working on a smoke sys. for the = RV6A=20 Rotary, want min. 3 gal., portable, useing automotive fuel pump, = looking=20 for a solinoid valve control for flow ( no dribbling soft smoke = trail=20 ).  David R. Cook
 
 
 From:=20 "Fly rotary blog, e-mail" mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net
To: = "Fly=20 rotary blog, e-mail" mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Sent: = Friday, December 5, 2014 10:10:54 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: the List
 
The last message that I seem to have received = from the=20 list was 11/19. this
is a test to see if I have = inadvertently been=20 dropped.
Bill=20 = Schertz

 

--
Homepage:  = http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l

 
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l
 
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