X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.68] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTP id 6825433 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 12 Apr 2014 18:50:47 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.68; envelope-from=n360tg@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=H8CGSlHKDQrlGKSADEMpv5aYJ/Oulc1UGtMjEOWUDMBnAuRizXXMbyNSC/FFDcig; h=Received:Subject:References:From:Content-Type:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [166.147.111.78] (helo=[192.168.43.45]) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1WZ6kW-0002NX-2k for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 12 Apr 2014 18:50:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not References: From: Thomas Giddings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D2D5864A-30EE-4012-BA16-434ACE1C4AC2 X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11D167) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 18:50:09 -0400 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-ELNK-Trace: 77b0437ff618fec294f5150ab1c16ac0b4de374c5ae8ff7934e9ef0a52e8c0230ef410615e1a47e8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 166.147.111.78 --Apple-Mail-D2D5864A-30EE-4012-BA16-434ACE1C4AC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neil: Thanks for the encouragement . I have talked to the Spitfire guy mysel= f. Not sure why his is so high. I question if it cost that much.... Kind Regards Tom Giddings > On Apr 12, 2014, at 5:48 PM, "Neil Unger" wrote: >=20 > Thomas, > That is actually reasonably cheap for as I said Motech is= the world leader. I went to a bloke that fits Motech to some spitfire clon= es and has all sorts of redundancies in the system, and did not take long to= get to well over $10,000 and he was still going up with price and add ons. = Again Motech is the best choice and you will not regret your decision. Mos= t race cars run with motech. Neil. > =20 > From: Thomas Giddings > Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:33 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not > =20 > M84 1865.00 AU....I was going to go with Tracy's Equipment and I am sure i= t would have worked fine,but the engine builder has had a lot of experience w= ith Motec and Tuning ect. I yielded to there wisdom. > KIND REGARDS > Thomas Giddings > n360tg@earthlink.net > 727 858 1772 > =20 >=20 > =20 >> On Apr 11, 2014, at 10:42 PM, Neil Unger wrote: >>=20 >> You have taken the top line ECU, but very expensive.=20 >> =20 >> From: Thomas Giddings >> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 12:36 PM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not >> =20 >> My engine will be run by a Motec. It is australian as well.. >> KIND REGARDS >> Thomas Giddings >> n360tg@earthlink.net >> 727 858 1772 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>> On Apr 11, 2014, at 10:06 PM, Neil Unger wrote: >>>=20 >>> No secret really, just a microtech ECU which is Australian! (Had to get= that one in!) I can only go by the A/F ration as per fuel burn. With trac= y=E2=80=99s I kept it at around 12.5 as the engine seemed happier there, whi= le the microtech is running great at 13.5 to 14. However I must add there t= hat I have now been advised to richen that to a max of 13.5, so have to mak= e a few further adjustments there. Knowing fuel burn other than that is im= possible as Tracy=E2=80=99s engine monitor does not recognise the pulse from= the injectors, or I have probably stuffed up the wiring somewhere. I also h= ad to put a thermostat back in the line as the ECU works from water temp, MA= P, a fuel map and a TPS. You have to set an idle map, a load map, then a WO= T map. Tracy=E2=80=99s is easier to map, but needs the knob to continually f= ine tune the mix which was very useful. Having finally got the ECU map righ= t in the new ECU (I hope) it is simply just a transfer of the numbers to any= other similar engine. The final setting I have to set is the automatic lea= n out in cruise. Once you no longer fiddle with the throttle for a few minu= tes the ECU says, I can lean this out for cruise, so does so to what you hav= e set (adjustable). It automatically richens for start and progressively le= ans as the engine warms up. Once you hit the magic 85 degrees then the fuel= map is as programmed. I have had grief with blowing the main fuse to t= he ECU by turning off at the master switch. Simple cure is to now kill= the engine with the coil isolation switchs. My new EGT of 1725 is at an A/= F ratio of almost 14, so can be lowered further by more fuel and possibly ad= vancing ignition by a degree or two. A local rotary racing bloke tells me t= hat he gets up to 45 degrees BTDC. AS usual, so much to learn. Neil. >>> =20 >>> From: Thomas Giddings >>> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:56 AM >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not >>> =20 >>> Ok...We all gotta know..which ECU and did your fuel burn increase>:) >>> KIND REGARDS >>> Thomas Giddings >>> n360tg@earthlink.net >>> 727 858 1772 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>> On Apr 11, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Neil Unger wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Your EGT is interesting. I could easily get up to 1850 degrees at WOT.= over about 5 hours I managed to burn out 2 sets of EGT probes due to heat.= Then I managed to stuff up Tracy;s ECU which mandated a return for repair.= While waiting for it=E2=80=99s return I had the offer of a different ECU. = Once wired in and set I found that the max EGT that I now get is 1725 degre= es. Nothing else has been changed. The only difference between this unit a= nd Tracy=E2=80=99s is that this has a trigger box which I suspect gets the s= park away just that fraction quicker and may in fact make the spark advanced= over Tracy=E2=80=99s. The new unit sits at 27 degrees BTDC at WOT. Would= like Tracy to chime in on this one as my expertise is mechanical, certainly= not electrical. It may also be imagination, but the exhaust seems quiete= r. Neil. >>>> =20 >>>> From: Mark Steitle >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:14 AM >>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not >>>> =20 >>>> Sounds like a prudent plan to me. >>>>=20 >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>=20 >>>>> On Apr 11, 2014, at 4:51 PM, shipchief@aol.com wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> I went out to the Hangar last Tuesday to start installing the intercoo= ler. Well, at least to fit a few tubes and hoses, then hold up some parts an= d make plans. >>>>> As I took the air discharge tube off the compressor, I noticed the who= le turbo compressor & bearing assembly wiggling around on the turbine housin= g! >>>>> I checked all the mounting bolts and clips, everything was tight. >>>>> So I took the turbo off the engine, and realized that I probably cooke= d the turbine housing. I did see EGT excursions to 1800F. What's worse, I ha= d a new turbo blanket. I think a heat shield would have been better, so some= cooling air could pass over the housing, but still block radiant heat. >>>>> Bummer. >>>>> So I decided to go with Plan B: I ordered the bits and tube bends to s= witch to naturally aspirated operation. I'm keeping the exhaust header that t= he turbo sat upon, and replacing everything else past the bottom of the fire= wall, to the new pipe & muffler I recently added. >>>>> I'm retaining the ability to 'Go Turbo' later, but I've become curious= about what the turbo must boost to equal full throttle of 'Naturally Aspira= ted'. >>>>> I did build and have been running a tuned intake manifold. The exhaust= won't be a tuned header, but it is pretty good, possibly better than the st= ock exhaust reactor and a whole lot lighter. It has port discharge nozzles (= reversion cones) EGT probes and a gentle sweeping shape. Plus it's proven st= rong while carrying the weight of the turbo beyond 1800F, and it passed insp= ection. I trust it. >>>>> So I hope to run it, find the performance satisfactory, the fuel consu= mption significantly reduced, and use 87 octane ethanol free mogas instead o= f 92. (low compression rotors) >>>>> Also, I can advance the timing to the NA spec.=20 >>>>> Anyone see a problem or have advise? >=20 > =20 --Apple-Mail-D2D5864A-30EE-4012-BA16-434ACE1C4AC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Neil: Thanks for the encouragement . I= have talked to the Spitfire guy myself. Not sure why his is so high. I ques= tion if it cost that much....

Kind Regards
Tom Giddings



On Apr 12, 2014, at 5:48= PM, "Neil Unger" <neil.unger@b= igpond.com> wrote:

Thomas,
            = ;    =20 That is actually reasonably cheap for as I said Motech is the world=20 leader.  I went to a bloke that fits Motech to some spitfire clones and= has=20 all sorts of redundancies in the system, and did not take long to get to wel= l=20 over $10,000 and he was still going up with price and add ons.  Again=20= Motech is the best choice and you will not regret your decision.  Most r= ace=20 cars run with motech. Neil.
 
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:33 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to=20 not
 
M84=20 1865.00 AU....I was going to go with Tracy's Equipment and I am sure it woul= d=20 have worked fine,but the engine builder has had a lot of experience with Mot= ec=20 and Tuning ect. I yielded to there wisdom.
KIND REGARDS
Thomas Giddings
727 858 1772
 

 
On Apr 11, 2014, at 10:42 PM, Neil Unger wrote:

You have taken the top line ECU, but very expensive. 
 
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 12:36 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to=20 not
 
My=20 engine will be run by a Motec. It is australian as well..
KIND REGARDS
Thomas Giddings
n360tg@earthlink.net
727 858 1772
 

 
On Apr 11, 2014, at 10:06 PM, Neil Unger wrote:

No secret really, just a microtech ECU which is Australian!  (= Had=20 to get that one in!)  I can only go by the A/F ration as per fuel=20= burn.  With tracy=E2=80=99s I kept it at around 12.5 as the engine s= eemed=20 happier there, while the microtech is running great at 13.5 to 14. = =20 However I must add there that I have now been advised to richen that to a= =20 max of  13.5, so have to make a few further adjustments there. = ;=20 Knowing fuel burn other than  that is impossible as Tracy=E2=80=99s= engine=20 monitor does not recognise the pulse from the injectors, or I have proba= bly=20 stuffed up the wiring somewhere.  I also had to put a thermostat ba= ck=20 in the line as the ECU works from water temp, MAP, a fuel map and a=20 TPS.  You have to set an idle map, a load map, then a WOT map. = ;=20 Tracy=E2=80=99s is easier to map, but needs the knob to continually fine= tune the=20 mix which was very useful.  Having finally got the ECU map right in= the=20 new ECU (I hope) it is simply just a transfer of the numbers to any othe= r=20 similar engine.  The final setting I have to set is the automatic l= ean=20 out in cruise.  Once you no longer fiddle with the throttle for a f= ew=20 minutes the ECU says, I can lean this out for cruise, so does so to what= you=20 have set (adjustable).  It automatically richens for start and=20 progressively leans as the engine warms up.  Once you hit the magic= 85=20 degrees then the fuel map is as programmed.  I have had grief with=20= blowing the main fuse to the ECU by turning off at the master switch.&nb= sp;=20 Simple cure is to now kill the engine with the coil isolation switchs.&n= bsp;=20 My new EGT of 1725 is at an A/F ratio of almost 14, so can be lowered=20= further by more fuel and possibly advancing ignition by a degree or=20 two.  A local rotary racing bloke tells me that he gets up to 45=20= degrees BTDC.  AS usual, so much to learn.  Neil.
Your EGT is interesting.  I could easily get up to 1850 degr= ees=20 at WOT.  over about 5 hours I managed to burn out 2 sets of EGT=20= probes due to heat.  Then I managed to stuff up Tracy;s ECU which= =20 mandated a return for repair.  While waiting for it=E2=80=99s ret= urn I had=20 the offer of a different ECU.  Once wired in and set I found that= the=20 max EGT that I now get is 1725 degrees.  Nothing else has been=20= changed.  The only difference between this unit and Tracy=E2=80=99= s is that=20 this has a trigger box which I suspect gets the spark away just that=20= fraction quicker and may in fact make the spark advanced over=20 Tracy=E2=80=99s.  The new unit sits at 27 degrees BTDC at  W= OT. =20 Would like Tracy to chime in on this one as my expertise is mechanical= ,=20 certainly not electrical.   It may also be  imagination= ,=20 but the exhaust seems quieter.   Neil.
 
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:14 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to=20 not
 
Sounds like a prudent plan to me.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 11, 2014, at 4:51 PM, shipchief@aol.com wrote:

I went out to the= =20 Hangar last Tuesday to start installing the intercooler. Well, at le= ast=20 to fit a few tubes and hoses, then hold up some parts and make=20 plans.
As I took the air discharge tube off the compressor, I noticed t= he=20 whole turbo compressor & bearing assembly wiggling around on the= =20 turbine housing!
I checked all the mounting bolts and clips, everything was tigh= t.=20
So I took the turbo off the engine, and realized that I probabl= y=20 cooked the turbine housing. I did see EGT excursions to 1800F. What'= s=20 worse, I had a new turbo blanket. I think a heat shield would have b= een=20 better, so some cooling air could pass over the housing, but still b= lock=20 radiant heat.
Bummer.
So I decided to go with Plan B: I ordered the bits and tube ben= ds=20 to switch to naturally aspirated operation. I'm keeping the exhaust=20= header that the turbo sat upon, and replacing everything else past t= he=20 bottom of the firewall, to the new pipe & muffler I recently=20 added.
I'm retaining the ability to 'Go Turbo' later, but I've become=20= curious about what the turbo must boost to equal full throttle of=20= 'Naturally Aspirated'.
I did build and have been running a tuned intake manifold. The=20= exhaust won't be a tuned header, but it is pretty good, possibly bet= ter=20 than the stock exhaust reactor and a whole lot lighter. It has port=20= discharge nozzles (reversion cones) EGT probes and a gentle sweeping= =20 shape. Plus it's proven strong while carrying the weight of the turb= o=20 beyond 1800F, and it passed inspection. I trust it.
So I hope to run it, find the performance satisfactory, the fue= l=20 consumption significantly reduced, and use 87 octane ethanol free mo= gas=20 instead of 92. (low compression rotors)
Also, I can advance the timing to the NA spec. 
Anyone see a problem or have=20 advise?
 
 
 
= --Apple-Mail-D2D5864A-30EE-4012-BA16-434ACE1C4AC2--