X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nschwmtas05p.mx.bigpond.com ([61.9.189.149] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTP id 6825390 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 12 Apr 2014 17:48:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=61.9.189.149; envelope-from=neil.unger@bigpond.com Received: from nschwcmgw07p ([61.9.190.167]) by nschwmtas05p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20140412214812.XRKY14630.nschwmtas05p.mx.bigpond.com@nschwcmgw07p> for ; Sat, 12 Apr 2014 21:48:12 +0000 Received: from UserPC ([101.174.177.139]) by nschwcmgw07p with BigPond Outbound id p9o71n00730qMYM019o7an; Sat, 12 Apr 2014 21:48:12 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=Os7NOlDt c=1 sm=1 a=OFg5b3vBRF5v1EhYekadRA==:17 a=_Eb2_8OXJN4A:10 a=JDadKst33uMA:10 a=1IlZJK9HAAAA:8 a=5Up8faWwAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=5yPPI5zXZexNgp4pv_MA:9 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=tXcarIeGnVYA:10 a=v6MMM96S_sUA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=F_F--HdsfAd1zXHM:21 a=4vkl3MexQW4-YFxv:21 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=yY2yOTWg7kgfAOaC0g4A:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=OFg5b3vBRF5v1EhYekadRA==:117 Message-ID: <2A5DF75043DE49A1B982322BE2236CCE@UserPC> From: "Neil Unger" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 07:48:05 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF56EC.B4728B70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF56EC.B4728B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thomas, That is actually reasonably cheap for as I said Motech = is the world leader. I went to a bloke that fits Motech to some = spitfire clones and has all sorts of redundancies in the system, and did = not take long to get to well over $10,000 and he was still going up with = price and add ons. Again Motech is the best choice and you will not = regret your decision. Most race cars run with motech. Neil.=20 From: Thomas Giddings=20 Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:33 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not M84 1865.00 AU....I was going to go with Tracy's Equipment and I am sure = it would have worked fine,but the engine builder has had a lot of = experience with Motec and Tuning ect. I yielded to there wisdom. KIND REGARDS Thomas Giddings n360tg@earthlink.net 727 858 1772 On Apr 11, 2014, at 10:42 PM, Neil Unger wrote: You have taken the top line ECU, but very expensive. =20 From: Thomas Giddings=20 Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 12:36 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not My engine will be run by a Motec. It is australian as well.. KIND REGARDS Thomas Giddings n360tg@earthlink.net 727 858 1772 On Apr 11, 2014, at 10:06 PM, Neil Unger wrote: No secret really, just a microtech ECU which is Australian! (Had to = get that one in!) I can only go by the A/F ration as per fuel burn. = With tracy=92s I kept it at around 12.5 as the engine seemed happier = there, while the microtech is running great at 13.5 to 14. However I = must add there that I have now been advised to richen that to a max of = 13.5, so have to make a few further adjustments there. Knowing fuel = burn other than that is impossible as Tracy=92s engine monitor does not = recognise the pulse from the injectors, or I have probably stuffed up = the wiring somewhere. I also had to put a thermostat back in the line = as the ECU works from water temp, MAP, a fuel map and a TPS. You have = to set an idle map, a load map, then a WOT map. Tracy=92s is easier to = map, but needs the knob to continually fine tune the mix which was very = useful. Having finally got the ECU map right in the new ECU (I hope) it = is simply just a transfer of the numbers to any other similar engine. = The final setting I have to set is the automatic lean out in cruise. = Once you no longer fiddle with the throttle for a few minutes the ECU = says, I can lean this out for cruise, so does so to what you have set = (adjustable). It automatically richens for start and progressively = leans as the engine warms up. Once you hit the magic 85 degrees then = the fuel map is as programmed. I have had grief with blowing the main = fuse to the ECU by turning off at the master switch. Simple cure is to = now kill the engine with the coil isolation switchs. My new EGT of 1725 = is at an A/F ratio of almost 14, so can be lowered further by more fuel = and possibly advancing ignition by a degree or two. A local rotary = racing bloke tells me that he gets up to 45 degrees BTDC. AS usual, so = much to learn. Neil. From: Thomas Giddings=20 Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not Ok...We all gotta know..which ECU and did your fuel burn increase>:) KIND REGARDS Thomas Giddings n360tg@earthlink.net 727 858 1772 On Apr 11, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Neil Unger wrote: Your EGT is interesting. I could easily get up to 1850 degrees at = WOT. over about 5 hours I managed to burn out 2 sets of EGT probes due = to heat. Then I managed to stuff up Tracy;s ECU which mandated a return = for repair. While waiting for it=92s return I had the offer of a = different ECU. Once wired in and set I found that the max EGT that I = now get is 1725 degrees. Nothing else has been changed. The only = difference between this unit and Tracy=92s is that this has a trigger = box which I suspect gets the spark away just that fraction quicker and = may in fact make the spark advanced over Tracy=92s. The new unit sits = at 27 degrees BTDC at WOT. Would like Tracy to chime in on this one as = my expertise is mechanical, certainly not electrical. It may also be = imagination, but the exhaust seems quieter. Neil. From: Mark Steitle=20 Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:14 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not Sounds like a prudent plan to me. Sent from my iPad On Apr 11, 2014, at 4:51 PM, shipchief@aol.com wrote: I went out to the Hangar last Tuesday to start installing the = intercooler. Well, at least to fit a few tubes and hoses, then hold up = some parts and make plans. As I took the air discharge tube off the compressor, I noticed = the whole turbo compressor & bearing assembly wiggling around on the = turbine housing! I checked all the mounting bolts and clips, everything was = tight.=20 So I took the turbo off the engine, and realized that I probably = cooked the turbine housing. I did see EGT excursions to 1800F. What's = worse, I had a new turbo blanket. I think a heat shield would have been = better, so some cooling air could pass over the housing, but still block = radiant heat. Bummer.=20 So I decided to go with Plan B: I ordered the bits and tube = bends to switch to naturally aspirated operation. I'm keeping the = exhaust header that the turbo sat upon, and replacing everything else = past the bottom of the firewall, to the new pipe & muffler I recently = added. I'm retaining the ability to 'Go Turbo' later, but I've become = curious about what the turbo must boost to equal full throttle of = 'Naturally Aspirated'. I did build and have been running a tuned intake manifold. The = exhaust won't be a tuned header, but it is pretty good, possibly better = than the stock exhaust reactor and a whole lot lighter. It has port = discharge nozzles (reversion cones) EGT probes and a gentle sweeping = shape. Plus it's proven strong while carrying the weight of the turbo = beyond 1800F, and it passed inspection. I trust it. So I hope to run it, find the performance satisfactory, the fuel = consumption significantly reduced, and use 87 octane ethanol free mogas = instead of 92. (low compression rotors) Also, I can advance the timing to the NA spec. =20 Anyone see a problem or have advise? ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF56EC.B4728B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thomas,
           &n= bsp;    =20 That is actually reasonably cheap for as I said Motech is the world=20 leader.  I went to a bloke that fits Motech to some spitfire clones = and has=20 all sorts of redundancies in the system, and did not take long to get to = well=20 over $10,000 and he was still going up with price and add ons.  = Again=20 Motech is the best choice and you will not regret your decision.  = Most race=20 cars run with motech. Neil.
 
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:33 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to=20 not
 
M84=20 1865.00 AU....I was going to go with Tracy's Equipment and I am sure it = would=20 have worked fine,but the engine builder has had a lot of experience with = Motec=20 and Tuning ect. I yielded to there wisdom.
KIND REGARDS
Thomas Giddings
727 858 1772
 

 
On Apr 11, 2014, at 10:42 PM, Neil Unger wrote:
You have taken the top line ECU, but very expensive. 
 
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 12:36 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to=20 not
 
My=20 engine will be run by a Motec. It is australian as well..
KIND REGARDS
Thomas Giddings
727 858 1772
 

 
On Apr 11, 2014, at 10:06 PM, Neil Unger wrote:
No secret really, just a microtech ECU which is = Australian!  (Had=20 to get that one in!)  I can only go by the A/F ration as per = fuel=20 burn.  With tracy=92s I kept it at around 12.5 as the engine = seemed=20 happier there, while the microtech is running great at 13.5 to = 14. =20 However I must add there that I have now been advised to richen that = to a=20 max of  13.5, so have to make a few further adjustments = there. =20 Knowing fuel burn other than  that is impossible as Tracy=92s = engine=20 monitor does not recognise the pulse from the injectors, or I have = probably=20 stuffed up the wiring somewhere.  I also had to put a = thermostat back=20 in the line as the ECU works from water temp, MAP, a fuel map and a=20 TPS.  You have to set an idle map, a load map, then a WOT = map. =20 Tracy=92s is easier to map, but needs the knob to continually fine = tune the=20 mix which was very useful.  Having finally got the ECU map = right in the=20 new ECU (I hope) it is simply just a transfer of the numbers to any = other=20 similar engine.  The final setting I have to set is the = automatic lean=20 out in cruise.  Once you no longer fiddle with the throttle for = a few=20 minutes the ECU says, I can lean this out for cruise, so does so to = what you=20 have set (adjustable).  It automatically richens for start and=20 progressively leans as the engine warms up.  Once you hit the = magic 85=20 degrees then the fuel map is as programmed.  I have had grief = with=20 blowing the main fuse to the ECU by turning off at the master = switch. =20 Simple cure is to now kill the engine with the coil isolation = switchs. =20 My new EGT of 1725 is at an A/F ratio of almost 14, so can be = lowered=20 further by more fuel and possibly advancing ignition by a degree or=20 two.  A local rotary racing bloke tells me that he gets up to = 45=20 degrees BTDC.  AS usual, so much to learn.  Neil.
 
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:56 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to=20 not
 
Ok...We=20 all gotta know..which ECU and did your fuel burn increase>:)
KIND REGARDS
Thomas Giddings
727 858 1772
 

 
On Apr 11, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Neil Unger wrote:
Your EGT is interesting.  I could easily get up to 1850 = degrees=20 at WOT.  over about 5 hours I managed to burn out 2 sets of = EGT=20 probes due to heat.  Then I managed to stuff up Tracy;s ECU = which=20 mandated a return for repair.  While waiting for it=92s = return I had=20 the offer of a different ECU.  Once wired in and set I found = that the=20 max EGT that I now get is 1725 degrees.  Nothing else has = been=20 changed.  The only difference between this unit and Tracy=92s = is that=20 this has a trigger box which I suspect gets the spark away just = that=20 fraction quicker and may in fact make the spark advanced over=20 Tracy=92s.  The new unit sits at 27 degrees BTDC at  = WOT. =20 Would like Tracy to chime in on this one as my expertise is = mechanical,=20 certainly not electrical.   It may also be  = imagination,=20 but the exhaust seems quieter.   Neil.
 
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:14 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to=20 not
 
Sounds like a prudent plan to me.

Sent from my = iPad

On Apr 11, 2014, at 4:51 PM, shipchief@aol.com = wrote:

I went out to = the=20 Hangar last Tuesday to start installing the intercooler. Well, = at least=20 to fit a few tubes and hoses, then hold up some parts and make=20 plans.
As I took the air discharge tube off the compressor, I = noticed the=20 whole turbo compressor & bearing assembly wiggling around on = the=20 turbine housing!
I checked all the mounting bolts and clips, everything was = tight.=20
So I took the turbo off the engine, and realized that I = probably=20 cooked the turbine housing. I did see EGT excursions to 1800F. = What's=20 worse, I had a new turbo blanket. I think a heat shield would = have been=20 better, so some cooling air could pass over the housing, but = still block=20 radiant heat.
Bummer.
So I decided to go with Plan B: I ordered the bits and tube = bends=20 to switch to naturally aspirated operation. I'm keeping the = exhaust=20 header that the turbo sat upon, and replacing everything else = past the=20 bottom of the firewall, to the new pipe & muffler I recently = added.
I'm retaining the ability to 'Go Turbo' later, but I've = become=20 curious about what the turbo must boost to equal full throttle = of=20 'Naturally Aspirated'.
I did build and have been running a tuned intake manifold. = The=20 exhaust won't be a tuned header, but it is pretty good, possibly = better=20 than the stock exhaust reactor and a whole lot lighter. It has = port=20 discharge nozzles (reversion cones) EGT probes and a gentle = sweeping=20 shape. Plus it's proven strong while carrying the weight of the = turbo=20 beyond 1800F, and it passed inspection. I trust it.
So I hope to run it, find the performance satisfactory, the = fuel=20 consumption significantly reduced, and use 87 octane ethanol = free mogas=20 instead of 92. (low compression rotors)
Also, I can advance the timing to the NA spec. 
Anyone see a problem or have=20 = advise?
 
 
 
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