X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nschwmtas03p.mx.bigpond.com ([61.9.189.143] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTP id 6824483 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 11 Apr 2014 22:07:25 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=61.9.189.143; envelope-from=neil.unger@bigpond.com Received: from nschwcmgw05p ([61.9.190.165]) by nschwmtas03p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20140412020649.RDHR23397.nschwmtas03p.mx.bigpond.com@nschwcmgw05p> for ; Sat, 12 Apr 2014 02:06:49 +0000 Received: from UserPC ([138.130.67.81]) by nschwcmgw05p with BigPond Outbound id oq6l1n00W1lBwLS01q6mYj; Sat, 12 Apr 2014 02:06:49 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=XNWyuHdE c=1 sm=1 a=Ol42x5zWN5PzhEo/eDv1CQ==:17 a=_Eb2_8OXJN4A:10 a=JDadKst33uMA:10 a=1IlZJK9HAAAA:8 a=5Up8faWwAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=JonjrOdx3P9-5JJWIRwA:9 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=tXcarIeGnVYA:10 a=v6MMM96S_sUA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=kw6lWz2xr3mlP8xe:21 a=SepRUVMGAl58bUnf:21 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=-Lw4u14PfpYwcxVvB0cA:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=Ol42x5zWN5PzhEo/eDv1CQ==:117 Message-ID: <69C75EBFE69342D1AF15536A7B596566@UserPC> From: "Neil Unger" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 12:06:32 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF5647.A498D560" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF5647.A498D560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No secret really, just a microtech ECU which is Australian! (Had to get = that one in!) I can only go by the A/F ration as per fuel burn. With = tracy=92s I kept it at around 12.5 as the engine seemed happier there, = while the microtech is running great at 13.5 to 14. However I must add = there that I have now been advised to richen that to a max of 13.5, so = have to make a few further adjustments there. Knowing fuel burn other = than that is impossible as Tracy=92s engine monitor does not recognise = the pulse from the injectors, or I have probably stuffed up the wiring = somewhere. I also had to put a thermostat back in the line as the ECU = works from water temp, MAP, a fuel map and a TPS. You have to set an = idle map, a load map, then a WOT map. Tracy=92s is easier to map, but = needs the knob to continually fine tune the mix which was very useful. = Having finally got the ECU map right in the new ECU (I hope) it is = simply just a transfer of the numbers to any other similar engine. The = final setting I have to set is the automatic lean out in cruise. Once = you no longer fiddle with the throttle for a few minutes the ECU says, I = can lean this out for cruise, so does so to what you have set = (adjustable). It automatically richens for start and progressively = leans as the engine warms up. Once you hit the magic 85 degrees then = the fuel map is as programmed. I have had grief with blowing the main = fuse to the ECU by turning off at the master switch. Simple cure is to = now kill the engine with the coil isolation switchs. My new EGT of 1725 = is at an A/F ratio of almost 14, so can be lowered further by more fuel = and possibly advancing ignition by a degree or two. A local rotary = racing bloke tells me that he gets up to 45 degrees BTDC. AS usual, so = much to learn. Neil. From: Thomas Giddings=20 Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:56 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not Ok...We all gotta know..which ECU and did your fuel burn increase>:) KIND REGARDS Thomas Giddings n360tg@earthlink.net 727 858 1772 On Apr 11, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Neil Unger wrote: Your EGT is interesting. I could easily get up to 1850 degrees at = WOT. over about 5 hours I managed to burn out 2 sets of EGT probes due = to heat. Then I managed to stuff up Tracy;s ECU which mandated a return = for repair. While waiting for it=92s return I had the offer of a = different ECU. Once wired in and set I found that the max EGT that I = now get is 1725 degrees. Nothing else has been changed. The only = difference between this unit and Tracy=92s is that this has a trigger = box which I suspect gets the spark away just that fraction quicker and = may in fact make the spark advanced over Tracy=92s. The new unit sits = at 27 degrees BTDC at WOT. Would like Tracy to chime in on this one as = my expertise is mechanical, certainly not electrical. It may also be = imagination, but the exhaust seems quieter. Neil. From: Mark Steitle=20 Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:14 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not Sounds like a prudent plan to me. Sent from my iPad On Apr 11, 2014, at 4:51 PM, shipchief@aol.com wrote: I went out to the Hangar last Tuesday to start installing the = intercooler. Well, at least to fit a few tubes and hoses, then hold up = some parts and make plans. As I took the air discharge tube off the compressor, I noticed the = whole turbo compressor & bearing assembly wiggling around on the turbine = housing! I checked all the mounting bolts and clips, everything was tight.=20 So I took the turbo off the engine, and realized that I probably = cooked the turbine housing. I did see EGT excursions to 1800F. What's = worse, I had a new turbo blanket. I think a heat shield would have been = better, so some cooling air could pass over the housing, but still block = radiant heat. Bummer.=20 So I decided to go with Plan B: I ordered the bits and tube bends to = switch to naturally aspirated operation. I'm keeping the exhaust header = that the turbo sat upon, and replacing everything else past the bottom = of the firewall, to the new pipe & muffler I recently added. I'm retaining the ability to 'Go Turbo' later, but I've become = curious about what the turbo must boost to equal full throttle of = 'Naturally Aspirated'. I did build and have been running a tuned intake manifold. The = exhaust won't be a tuned header, but it is pretty good, possibly better = than the stock exhaust reactor and a whole lot lighter. It has port = discharge nozzles (reversion cones) EGT probes and a gentle sweeping = shape. Plus it's proven strong while carrying the weight of the turbo = beyond 1800F, and it passed inspection. I trust it. So I hope to run it, find the performance satisfactory, the fuel = consumption significantly reduced, and use 87 octane ethanol free mogas = instead of 92. (low compression rotors) Also, I can advance the timing to the NA spec. =20 Anyone see a problem or have advise? ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF5647.A498D560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No secret really, just a microtech ECU which is Australian!  = (Had to=20 get that one in!)  I can only go by the A/F ration as per fuel = burn. =20 With tracy=92s I kept it at around 12.5 as the engine seemed happier = there, while=20 the microtech is running great at 13.5 to 14.  However I must add = there=20 that I have now been advised to richen that to a max of  13.5, so = have to=20 make a few further adjustments there.  Knowing fuel burn other = than =20 that is impossible as Tracy=92s engine monitor does not recognise the = pulse from=20 the injectors, or I have probably stuffed up the wiring somewhere.  = I also=20 had to put a thermostat back in the line as the ECU works from water = temp, MAP,=20 a fuel map and a TPS.  You have to set an idle map, a load map, = then a WOT=20 map.  Tracy=92s is easier to map, but needs the knob to continually = fine tune=20 the mix which was very useful.  Having finally got the ECU map = right in the=20 new ECU (I hope) it is simply just a transfer of the numbers to any = other=20 similar engine.  The final setting I have to set is the automatic = lean out=20 in cruise.  Once you no longer fiddle with the throttle for a few = minutes=20 the ECU says, I can lean this out for cruise, so does so to what you = have set=20 (adjustable).  It automatically richens for start and progressively = leans=20 as the engine warms up.  Once you hit the magic 85 degrees then the = fuel=20 map is as programmed.  I have had grief with blowing the main fuse = to the=20 ECU by turning off at the master switch.  Simple cure is to now = kill the=20 engine with the coil isolation switchs.  My new EGT of 1725 is at = an A/F=20 ratio of almost 14, so can be lowered further by more fuel and possibly=20 advancing ignition by a degree or two.  A local rotary racing bloke = tells=20 me that he gets up to 45 degrees BTDC.  AS usual, so much to = learn. =20 Neil.
 
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:56 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to=20 not
 
Ok...We=20 all gotta know..which ECU and did your fuel burn increase>:)
KIND REGARDS
Thomas Giddings
727 858 1772
 

 
On Apr 11, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Neil Unger wrote:
Your EGT is interesting.  I could easily get up to 1850 = degrees at=20 WOT.  over about 5 hours I managed to burn out 2 sets of EGT = probes due=20 to heat.  Then I managed to stuff up Tracy;s ECU which mandated a = return=20 for repair.  While waiting for it=92s return I had the offer of a = different=20 ECU.  Once wired in and set I found that the max EGT that I now = get is=20 1725 degrees.  Nothing else has been changed.  The only = difference=20 between this unit and Tracy=92s is that this has a trigger box which I = suspect=20 gets the spark away just that fraction quicker and may in fact make = the spark=20 advanced over Tracy=92s.  The new unit sits at 27 degrees BTDC = at =20 WOT.  Would like Tracy to chime in on this one as my expertise is = mechanical, certainly not electrical.   It may also be  = imagination, but the exhaust seems quieter.   Neil.
 
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:14 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to=20 not
 
Sounds like a prudent plan to me.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 11, 2014, at 4:51 PM, shipchief@aol.com = wrote:

I went out to the = Hangar=20 last Tuesday to start installing the intercooler. Well, at least to = fit a=20 few tubes and hoses, then hold up some parts and make = plans.
As I took the air discharge tube off the compressor, I noticed = the=20 whole turbo compressor & bearing assembly wiggling around on the = turbine=20 housing!
I checked all the mounting bolts and clips, everything was = tight.=20
So I took the turbo off the engine, and realized that I = probably cooked=20 the turbine housing. I did see EGT excursions to 1800F. What's = worse, I had=20 a new turbo blanket. I think a heat shield would have been better, = so some=20 cooling air could pass over the housing, but still block radiant = heat.
Bummer.
So I decided to go with Plan B: I ordered the bits and tube = bends to=20 switch to naturally aspirated operation. I'm keeping the exhaust = header that=20 the turbo sat upon, and replacing everything else past the bottom of = the=20 firewall, to the new pipe & muffler I recently added.
I'm retaining the ability to 'Go Turbo' later, but I've become = curious=20 about what the turbo must boost to equal full throttle of 'Naturally = Aspirated'.
I did build and have been running a tuned intake manifold. The = exhaust=20 won't be a tuned header, but it is pretty good, possibly better than = the=20 stock exhaust reactor and a whole lot lighter. It has port discharge = nozzles=20 (reversion cones) EGT probes and a gentle sweeping shape. Plus it's = proven=20 strong while carrying the weight of the turbo beyond 1800F, and it = passed=20 inspection. I trust it.
So I hope to run it, find the performance satisfactory, the = fuel=20 consumption significantly reduced, and use 87 octane ethanol free = mogas=20 instead of 92. (low compression rotors)
Also, I can advance the timing to the NA spec. 
Anyone see a problem or have=20 = advise?
 
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