Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.169.87] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 3051037 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:04:13 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:04:12 -0800 Received: from 64.159.105.241 by bay3-dav57.bay3.hotmail.com with DAV; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:04:12 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [64.159.105.241] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Injectors on? Was 13B - No start problem Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:04:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0011.2700 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C3FEBC.2212A5A0" Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Feb 2004 17:04:12.0982 (UTC) FILETIME=[0E262560:01C3FEE6] ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C3FEBC.2212A5A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed is right, the EC2 should not be turning the injectors on when engine n= ot running (even with the injectors improperly wired straight to 12V). T= here have now been at least 2 builders who flew the plane with this setup= (not recommended) and one of them had even forgotten to wire the normal= power inputs to the EC2! (definitely not recommended). Tracy =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 7:30 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Injectors on? Was 13B - No start problem David , something does not sound quite right here. My understanding is that your injectors should not normally be open i= f they are wired the way Tracy recommends for his Ec2. While it is true th= at there is (or may be) 12V to the injectors - that alone should not normall= y cause them to open. The injectors should only open when the EC2 unit injector driver (during normal operation) provides a ground path on one s= ide of the injector wiring for current to flow through the injector. Unless t= he EC2 is on and the engine running the injector driver is NOT periodically grounding the injector and there should be no fuel injected. In otherwords, with the EC2 off, you can measure 12V on both sides on an injector. Therefore no voltage drop across the injector signifying no current flow. However, when the EC2 is operating it grounds one side of the injector causing current to flow thru it lifting the injector selnoid and allowing fuel to squirt into the engine. That that point you would find 12V on one side of the injector and ground (zero volts) on the other side - would probably need an oscilloscope to see it due to the speed at which it happens when the engine is running. Now, there is apparently a transit response in the system so that when yo= u first apply power the injectors are triggered once. With my EC2 off but pressure in the lines, if I turn my injector switches ON I can see the fu= el pressure drop (pump off) due to this transit opening. However, once that transit and it's almost immediate on and off action occurs the injectors = are then closed until triggered by the EC2. So you can end up with fuel in t= he engine due to this transit phenomona, but they should NOT normally be continously open.. Tracy?? Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message ----- =20 From: "David Leonard" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 1:00 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B - No start problem > > > I put gas in my tanks and ran fuel throught the system for the first > time today and discovered something that surprised me and may be causin= g > problems. With the injectors connected to the main buss, when ever > there is power to the injectors they are OPEN!!! This occurs even when > the EC2 does not have power. As I was trying to adjust my fuel pressur= e > and check for leaks (there were only 4 ;-) I had about 10 min of pump > running time with the injectors open before I discovered the issue. No= w > I'm sure I have quite a puddle of fluid inside the intake and rotor > chambers. > > If you are spending any amount of time running the pump without running > the engine, and there is power to the injectors, you may be flooding > everything. > > Its not really a problem now that I know how it works, but I was just > expecting the injectors to be closed unless the e-shaft was turning. > > And speaking of gas in the tanks. I went to add oil and realized that = I > never made a final decision with regard to ratio... I finally chose > 70:1 but know that some are going with 100:1. Anyone have a more > definitive word? > > David Leonard (hoping for first start attempt this weekend) > The Rotary Roster: > http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > On > > Behalf Of Steve Brooks > > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 2:23 PM > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B - No start problem > > > > John, > > > > Have you checked to see if you still have spark ? Also you might wan= t > to > > recheck the static timing to make sure that you're in the ball park. > > If it's flooded, turn off the fuel pump open the throttle a little bi= t > and > > crank it. It should fire up and burn off the excess fuel. > > > > Steve > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rotary motors in aircraft > [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > > On > > Behalf Of John Slade > > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 2:53 PM > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Subject: [FlyRotary] 13B - No start problem > > > > A little help on starting??? > > > > After my first Brrrapppp I dont seem to be able to get anything at > all. > > The plugs all fire nicely when out, and I have plenty of fuel > pressure. > > After cranking the plugs are wet. > > > > Starting fluid? > > Any other ideas? > > > > > > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C3FEBC.2212A5A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed is right, t= he EC2 should not be turning the injectors on when engine not running (ev= en with the injectors improperly wired straight to 12V).  There have= now been at least 2 builders who flew the plane with this setup  (n= ot recommended) and one of them had even forgotten to wire the normal pow= er inputs to the EC2! (definitely not recommended).
 
Tracy
 
----- Original Mes= sage -----
From: Ed Anderson
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 7:30 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Injectors on? Was 13B - No s= tart problem
 
David , something does not sound quit= e right here.

    My understanding is that your inj= ectors should not normally be open if
they are wired the way Tracy rec= ommends for his Ec2.  While it is true that
there is (or may be) = 12V to the injectors - that alone should not normally
cause them to op= en.  The injectors should only open when the EC2 unit
injector dr= iver (during normal operation) provides a ground path on one side
of t= he injector wiring for current to flow through the injector. Unless theEC2 is on and the engine running the injector driver is NOT periodicall= y
grounding the injector and there should be no fuel injected. &n= bsp; In
otherwords, with the EC2 off,  you can measure 12V on bot= h sides on an
injector. Therefore no voltage drop across the injector = signifying no
current flow.   However, when the EC2 is opera= ting it grounds one side of
the injector causing current to flow thru = it lifting the injector selnoid
and allowing  fuel to squirt into= the engine.  That that point you would
find 12V on one side of t= he injector and ground (zero volts) on the other
side - would probably= need an oscilloscope to see it due to the speed at
which it happens w= hen the engine is  running.

Now, there is apparently a transi= t response in the system so that when you
first apply power the inject= ors are triggered once.  With my EC2 off but
pressure in the line= s, if I turn my injector switches ON I can see the fuel
pressure drop = (pump off) due to this transit opening.  However, once that
trans= it and it's almost immediate on and off action occurs the injectors arethen closed until triggered by the EC2.  So you can end up with fu= el in the
engine due to this transit phenomona, but they should NOT no= rmally be
continously open..

Tracy??

Ed
Ed AndersonRV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -= ----
From: "David Leonard" <Daveleonard@cox.net>
To: "Rotary= motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturda= y, February 28, 2004 1:00 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B - No start p= roblem


>
>
> I put gas in my tanks and ran fuel= throught the system for the first
> time today and discovered some= thing that surprised me and may be causing
> problems.  With t= he injectors connected to the main buss, when ever
> there is power= to the injectors they are OPEN!!!  This occurs even when
> th= e EC2 does not have power.  As I was trying to adjust my fuel pressu= re
> and check for leaks (there were only 4 ;-) I had about 10 min = of pump
> running time with the injectors open before I discovered = the issue.  Now
> I'm sure I have quite a puddle of fluid insi= de the intake and rotor
> chambers.
>
> If you are spen= ding any amount of time running the pump without running
> the engi= ne, and there is power to the injectors, you may be flooding
> ever= ything.
>
> Its not really a problem now that I know how it w= orks, but I was just
> expecting the injectors to be closed unless = the e-shaft was turning.
>
> And speaking of gas in the tanks=   I went to add oil and realized that I
> never made a final = decision with regard to ratio...  I finally chose
> 70:1 but k= now that some are going with 100:1.  Anyone have a more
> defi= nitive word?
>
> David Leonard (hoping for first start attemp= t this weekend)
> The Rotary Roster:
> http://members.aol.com= /_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html
>
> > -----Original Message= -----
> > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lanc= aironline.net]
> On
> > Behalf Of Steve Brooks
> >= ; Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 2:23 PM
> > To: Rotary motors = in aircraft
> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B - No start problem<= BR>> >
> > John,
> >
> > Have you checke= d to see if you still have spark ?  Also you might want
> to> > recheck the static timing to make sure that you're in the bal= l park.
> > If it's flooded, turn off the fuel pump open the thr= ottle a little bit
> and
> > crank it.  It should fir= e up and burn off the excess fuel.
> >
> > Steve
>= ; >
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: R= otary motors in aircraft
> [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
= > > On
> > Behalf Of John Slade
> > Sent: Friday,= February 27, 2004 2:53 PM
> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft
= > > Subject: [FlyRotary] 13B - No start problem
> >
>= ; > A little help on starting???
> >
> > After my fi= rst Brrrapppp I dont seem to be able to get anything at
> all.
&= gt; > The plugs all fire nicely when out, and I have plenty of fuel> pressure.
> > After cranking the plugs are wet.
> &g= t;
> > Starting fluid?
> > Any other ideas?
> >= ;
> >
> > >>  Homepage:  http://www.fly= rotary.com/
> > >>  Archive:   http://lanca= ironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >
> >
> = > >>  Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >= ; >>  Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyr= otary/List.html
>
>
> >>  Homepage:  ht= tp://www.flyrotary.com/
> >>  Archive:   http:= //lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>



>= >  Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>  Ar= chive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html
=
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