Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.101] (HELO ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 3050365 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:01:34 -0500 Received: from edward (clt78-020.carolina.rr.com [24.93.78.20]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i1T41OkG004310 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:01:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004301c3fe78$b7662080$2402a8c0@edward> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B smooth running issues Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:01:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01C3FE4E.CE4D6A30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C3FE4E.CE4D6A30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The air/fuel ratio indictor is a valuable tuning and diagnostic aid in = my book. When your engine is surging I would expect to see the LEDs = running up and down the scale - indicating a lean - rich - lean = condition. If you are not feeling any heat in the radiators, then that strongly = indicates that for whatever reason the thermostat is not opening. Even = with lots of air in the system you should find hot coolant in the bottom = 1/4 of the tank if the thermostat is opening. =20 If all else fail, I suggest taking the thermostat out - its not = impossible that it could be bad, just unlikely. In any case take the = thermostat out of the circuit, don't worry about plugging the 1/2" = recirculation hole at this point. The point of this is to see if you = can fill the engine block and radiators with coolant. Once you get some = coolant in both and you can tell the pump is circulating coolant from = the block to the radiator, then you can try sticking the thermostat back = in. However, before you do stick the thermostat back in, in fact right after = you take it out. Stick it in a pot of water and confirm that heating it = to 180-200F DOES cause it to open and the little plug (that blocks the = recirculation hole once the thermostat opens) extends. If the = thermostat is does not open then clearly that is a problem. =20 While you have the thermostat out of the engine, don't run it hard and = long as your cooling capacity is somewhat reduced, just long enough to = confrim you have hot coolant in the radiators. You can try filling the = engine to maximum with short runs. Your temperature gauge should also = start reading correctly once it has coolant bathing it. Even though you may lost a bit of coolant when you put the themostat = back in, I think you will find the block and radiators retain sufficient = coolant that your thermostat and coolant temp sensor should work. Some more specific comments in response to your questions below Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "John Slade" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 10:26 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B smooth running issues > >Do you have an O2 sensor, and meter? > I have Tracy's air fuel gauge. Not sure quite how to interpret it yet. >=20 > > I'd go through the procedure of reloading the default calibrations, = and go > from there. > Reading the manual again tonight >=20 > > The surging is just a mixture tuning issue, you'll fix that soon = enough. > thanks. Makes sense. >=20 > > Did your engine rebuilder install a high pressure oil relief valve? > I don't know. He's long gone. How would I find out? >=20 > >get a better gauge > I did. An expensive westach quad. It reads 90psi before I start the = engine. > :( >=20 > > place your hand on the radiator tanks. It will be noticeably hotter = from > >the bottom up to where ever the coolant level is. > It has been totally cold after every short run. >=20 > >I presume you are using a stock Mazda Thermostat > Yes >=20 > >The engine cycling like that makes me thing of a "lean surge" > Sounds reasonable. I'm using 4 of the purple 550 injectors. Hopefully > programming will solve this one. >=20 > >Regarding the oil pressure - are you certain that you have the oil = filter > >rigged properly? > Hmmm. I'm not sure. I got guidance from a local Mazda guy on this = issue. > Maybe he told me wrong. How would I know? The oil line from the oil pump out fitting (located on the front = aluminum cover) should go to the fitting that feeds the outside of the = oil filter. Perhaps a better way to express it is that the oil line = coming out of the center of the filter fitting should go to the oil = cooler and then back into the engine via the rear iron housing. I had = intially thought that it made sense to have the oil fed into the center = of the oil filter but that is not how its done. Fortunately, I never = fired the engine, but when I noticed no oil pressure after cranking I = took the oil line off the filter connection and found that I had oil to = that point but not beyond. Because I had hooked up the oil fitting = backwards. The filtered oil is returned from the center of the oil = filter can - if you reverse the connections then the oil filter will = oppose oil flow. But, since you appear to be getting oil pressure back = at the engine, I would think you are OK. >=20 > >Where is your oil pressure sensor located? > in the aluminum pad where my oil filter used to be. I now have a = remote > filer mounted on the redrive plate fed from the same pad. That sounds like the same location I have my oil pressure sensor. So a = pressure of 65-75 psi would be more normal unless you have a high = pressure oil pressure regulator (or as Rusty suggested a bad gauge). >=20 > >I presume you have the stock oil pressure > >regulator and not one of the high pressure racing ones. > I hope this is something internal to the engine. I never heard = anything > about an oil pressure regulator. Yes, its only accessable by taking off the oil pan. >=20 > Thanks for the ideas guys. Please keep em coming. I feel like a blind = man > trying to run though the woods at night. I keep bumping into trees. = Ouch. > Does everyone go through this, or is it just me? The answer is Yes! most go through similar teething pains. Some are = even worst as in they can't get the engine to run {:>). I cooked my = first engine because I ran it with insufficient coolant too long. = Fortunately the later engine blocks seem to be somewhat more resistant = to damage from overheating. Hang in there, you'r making progress! > John >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html > ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C3FE4E.CE4D6A30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The air/fuel ratio indictor is a = valuable tuning=20 and diagnostic aid in my book.  When your engine is surging I would = expect=20 to see the LEDs running up and down the scale - indicating a lean - rich = - lean=20 condition.
 
If you are not feeling any heat in the = radiators,=20 then that strongly indicates that for whatever reason the thermostat is = not=20 opening.  Even with lots of air in the system you should find hot = coolant=20 in the bottom 1/4 of the tank if the thermostat is opening.  =
 
If all else fail, I suggest taking the = thermostat=20 out - its not impossible that it could be bad, just unlikely.  In = any case=20 take the thermostat out of the circuit, don't worry about plugging the = 1/2"=20 recirculation hole at this point.  The point of this is to see if = you can=20 fill the engine block and radiators with coolant.  Once you get = some=20 coolant in both and you can tell the pump is circulating coolant from = the block=20 to the radiator, then you can try sticking the thermostat back = in.
 
However, before you do stick the = thermostat back=20 in, in fact right after you take it out.  Stick it in a pot of = water and=20 confirm that heating it to 180-200F DOES cause it to open and the little = plug=20 (that blocks the recirculation hole once the thermostat=20 opens) extends.  If the thermostat is does not open then = clearly that=20 is a problem. 
 
While you have the thermostat out of = the engine,=20 don't run it hard and long as your cooling capacity is somewhat reduced, = just=20 long enough to confrim you have hot coolant in the radiators.  You = can try=20 filling the engine to maximum with short runs.  Your temperature = gauge=20 should also start reading correctly once it has coolant bathing = it.
 
Even though you may lost a bit of = coolant when you=20 put the themostat back in, I think you will find the block and radiators = retain=20 sufficient coolant that your thermostat and coolant temp sensor should=20 work.
 
Some more specific comments in response = to your=20 questions below
 
Ed
 
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 10:26 = PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B smooth = running=20 issues

> >Do you have an O2 sensor, and=20 meter?
> I have Tracy's air fuel gauge. Not sure quite how to = interpret it=20 yet.
>
> > I'd go through the procedure of reloading the = default=20 calibrations, and go
> from there.
> Reading the manual = again=20 tonight
>
> > The surging is just a mixture tuning = issue, you'll=20 fix that soon enough.
> thanks. Makes sense.
>
> > = Did=20 your engine rebuilder install a high pressure oil relief valve?
> = I don't=20 know. He's long gone. How would I find out?
>
> >get a = better=20 gauge
> I did. An expensive westach quad. It reads 90psi before I = start=20 the engine.
> :(
>
> > place your hand on the = radiator=20 tanks. It will be noticeably hotter from
> >the bottom up to = where ever=20 the coolant level is.
> It has been totally cold after every short = run.
>
> >I presume you are using a stock Mazda=20 Thermostat
> Yes
>
> >The engine cycling like that = makes=20 me thing of a "lean surge"
> Sounds reasonable. I'm using 4 of the = purple=20 550 injectors. Hopefully
> programming will solve this = one.
>=20
> >Regarding the oil pressure - are you certain that you have = the oil=20 filter
> >rigged properly?
> Hmmm. I'm not sure. I got = guidance=20 from a local Mazda guy on this issue.
> Maybe he told me wrong. = How would=20 I know?
 
The oil line from = the oil pump=20 out fitting (located on the front aluminum cover) should go to the = fitting that=20 feeds the outside of the oil filter.  Perhaps a better way to = express it is=20 that the oil line coming out of the center of the filter=20 fitting should go to the oil cooler and then back into the = engine via=20 the rear iron housing. I had intially thought that it made sense to have = the oil=20 fed into the center of the oil filter but that is not how its=20 done. Fortunately, I never fired the engine, but when I = noticed no oil=20 pressure after cranking I took the oil line off the filter connection = and found=20 that I had oil to that point but not beyond.  Because I had hooked = up the=20 oil fitting backwards.   The filtered oil is returned from the = center=20 of the oil filter can - if you reverse the connections then the oil = filter=20 will oppose oil flow. But, since you appear to be getting oil pressure = back at=20 the engine, I would think you are OK.
>
> >Where = is your=20 oil pressure sensor located?
> in the aluminum pad where my oil = filter=20 used to be. I now have a remote
> filer mounted on the redrive = plate fed=20 from the same pad.
 
That sounds like = the same=20 location I have my oil pressure sensor.  So a pressure of 65-75 psi = would=20 be more normal unless you have a high pressure oil pressure regulator = (or as=20 Rusty suggested a bad gauge).
>
> >I presume you have = the stock oil=20 pressure
> >regulator and not one of the high pressure racing=20 ones.
> I hope this is something internal to the engine. I never = heard=20 anything
> about an oil pressure regulator.
 
Yes, its only = accessable by=20 taking off the oil pan.

>
> Thanks for the ideas guys. Please keep em coming. = I feel=20 like a blind man
> trying to run though the woods at night. I keep = bumping=20 into trees. Ouch.
> Does everyone go through this, or is it just = me?
 
The answer is Yes! most go through similar = teething=20 pains.  Some are even worst as in they can't get the engine to run=20 {:>).  I cooked my first engine because I ran it with = insufficient=20 coolant too long.  Fortunately the later engine blocks seem to be = somewhat=20 more resistant to damage from overheating.
Hang in there, you'r making = progress!

> John
>
>
>
>
>
> =
>=20
>
>
>
> >>  Homepage:  = http://www.flyrotary.com/
>=20 >>  Archive:   http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html>
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