Return-Path: <13brv3@bellsouth.net> Received: from imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net ([205.152.59.64] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 3050229 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:32:42 -0500 Received: from rad ([65.0.150.229]) by imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20040229013241.PQEP1830.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@rad> for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:32:41 -0500 From: "Russell Duffy" <13brv3@bellsouth.net> To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] 13B smooth running issues Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 19:32:41 -0600 Message-ID: <00fc01c3fe63$ecbe7cb0$6001a8c0@rad> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00FD_01C3FE31.A2240CB0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00FD_01C3FE31.A2240CB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I ran the engine for a total of 8 minutes spread over 5 or 6 runs this morning. It runs on computer B. If I switch to A it dies immediately. I = plan to study the EC2 manual in depth with respect to programming, but I = think I have a few mechanical issues to deal with as well. =20 You've probably got a mixture difference between A and B. Do you have = an O2 sensor, and meter? You'll certainly want one. I'd go through the = procedure of reloading the default calibrations, and go from there. =20 Cooling. I don't think I have ANY water circulation at all. After each short 15 second run I added maybe a pint of water. In a later longer run of about = 90 seconds I may have overheated the turbo. Perhaps it seized and this is what's causing my breathing problem below. Anyway, the oil came up to = about 180, but the water temp never moved off the peg, and the rad and pipes = never even got warm after any run. I have a slight drip from the lower water = pump fixture which goes to the rad. If this is the suction end, then I'm = probably sucking air into the system. I am running a thermostat. Maybe I should remove it. Since you're running a thermostat, I'd be surprised if it opened with = only the short amount of running that you did. When closed, it circulates through the block only, and the fact that you had to add a bit of = coolant each time is a good indication that it was circulating and getting the = air pockets out of the block. There's not much that can go wrong with a = stock water pump. If it's turning, it almost has to be pumping. Don't worry about seizing the turbo with no water flow. The turbo = doesn't really need the water except to help make up for people that run their = cars hard, then shut them off without a cool down period. With quality oil, = and a little care, you could disconnect the water pipe and never know the difference. =20 Breathing. The engine seems starved of air. I hear a suction kinda noise on = throttle change and the manifold pressure is hovering around 20 inches of hg. = (starts at 30). If I leave the throttle alone the engine will cycle up and down between say 2000 and 3000 by itself. It sounds sweet and happy, but obviously something's not right here. The surging is just a mixture tuning issue, you'll fix that soon enough. = A lot of air moves through an engine, and when the throttle is nearly = closed, it has to suck it through a small opening. I wouldn't worry about this either. Oil Pressure. I have a cheap mechanical gauge hooked up at the back (because my = westach reads 90psi when the engine's not running and goes off scale when it starts). The guy watching oil pressure says that the cheap gauge went = full circle, past 100 and hit the zero stop coming the other way. The cheap = gauge has air in the line, but that wouldnt cause this behavior would it?. = What oil pressure should I be reading. For a stock engine, about 30 psi at idle, and around 60 psi when fully = warm at any non-idle rpm. If you rev the engine cold, it might go higher. = Did your engine rebuilder install a high pressure oil relief valve? You = don't need it. The stock pressure is fine for our use. =20 Comments & suggestions welcome as always. I'm wayyyyy out of my depth = here. John Slade Cozy IV turbo 13B REW Entertainment, and EDUCATION :-) =20 Congrats on making noise! Rusty (need more TIG practice on stainless) ------=_NextPart_000_00FD_01C3FE31.A2240CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

I ran the engine for a total of 8 minutes spread over = 5 or 6=20 runs this morning. It runs on computer B. If I switch to A it dies = immediately.=20 I plan to study the EC2 manual in depth with respect to programming, but = I think=20 I have a few mechanical issues to deal with as well.

 
You've = probably got a=20 mixture difference between A and B.  Do you have an O2 sensor, and=20 meter?  You'll certainly want one.  I'd go through the = procedure of=20 reloading the default calibrations, and go from there.  =

Cooling.
I don't think I have ANY water circulation at all. After = each=20 short 15 second run I added maybe a pint of water. In a later longer run = of=20 about 90 seconds I may have overheated the turbo. Perhaps it seized and = this is=20 what's causing my breathing problem below. Anyway, the oil came up to = about 180,=20 but the water temp never moved off the peg, and the rad and pipes never = even got=20 warm after any run. I have a slight drip from the lower water pump = fixture which=20 goes to the rad. If this is the suction end, then I'm probably sucking = air into=20 the system. I am running a thermostat. Maybe I should remove it.

Since you're running a = thermostat, I'd=20 be surprised if it opened with only the short amount of running that you = did.  When closed, it circulates through the block only, and the = fact that=20 you had to add a bit of coolant each time is a good indication that it = was=20 circulating and getting the air pockets out of the block.  There's = not much=20 that can go wrong with a stock water pump.  If it's turning, it = almost has=20 to be pumping.

Don't worry about = seizing the turbo=20 with no water flow.  The turbo doesn't really need the water except = to help=20 make up for people that run their cars hard, then shut them off without = a cool=20 down period.  With quality oil, and a little care, you could = disconnect the=20 water pipe and never know the difference.
 

Breathing.
The engine seems starved of air. I hear a suction kinda = noise=20 on throttle change and the manifold pressure is hovering around 20 = inches of hg.=20 (starts at 30). If I leave the throttle alone the engine will cycle up = and down=20 between say 2000 and 3000 by itself. It sounds sweet and happy, but = obviously=20 something's not right here.

The surging is just a = mixture tuning=20 issue, you'll fix that soon enough.  A lot of air moves through an = engine,=20 and when the throttle is nearly closed, it has to suck it through a = small=20 opening.  I wouldn't worry about this either.


Oil Pressure.
I have a cheap mechanical gauge hooked up at the = back=20 (because my westach reads 90psi when the engine's not running and goes = off scale=20 when it starts). The guy watching oil pressure says that the cheap gauge = went=20 full circle, past 100 and hit the zero stop coming the other way. The = cheap=20 gauge has air in the line, but that wouldnt cause this behavior would = it?. What=20 oil pressure should I be reading.

For a stock engine, about = 30 psi at=20 idle, and around 60 psi when fully warm at any non-idle rpm.  If = you rev=20 the engine cold, it might go higher.  Did your engine = rebuilder=20 install a high pressure oil relief valve?  You don't need = it.  =20 The stock pressure is fine for our use. 

Comments = &=20 suggestions welcome as always. I'm wayyyyy out of my depth here. John = Slade Cozy=20 IV turbo 13B REW

Entertainment, and = EDUCATION :-) =20

Congrats on = making=20 noise!

Rusty (need more TIG = practice on=20 stainless)

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