Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.102] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 3049858 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 13:50:50 -0500 Received: from edward (clt78-020.carolina.rr.com [24.93.78.20]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i1SIoks2022553 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 13:50:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000801c3fe2b$ca909e30$2402a8c0@edward> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B - No start problem Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 13:50:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3FE01.E17C7BC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3FE01.E17C7BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageWelcome, David Yes, Tracy is correct, there is an unintended "sneak" circuit in = the EC2 that permits power to the EC2 through the injectors, however, = while that provides power to the EC2, it will not trigger the injectors = unless the EC2 is getting a signal from the crankangle sensor that = engine is running.. Tracy thought that folks would turn off their EC2 = by turning off the Master switch thereby killing all power to the EC2 = and injectors - however, some of us"fooled" him and have a switch for = the EC2 power as well as disabling switches for the injectors. You = really should reconsider installing the disabling switches as they = really help in trouble shooting.=20 But, in any case, there is a possibility that you are wired correctly = and have one bad injector. It only takes one injector stuck open to = quickly drain the pressure out of the fuel line. I had a bad injector = which would stick open intermittently and it about drove me nuts trying = to figure out what was causing my problem until finally one day it stuck = open on a ground run up and I was able to identify the bad one. = However, I don't really think that is your problem, else, removing the = fuse would make no difference unless the injector is grounding itself = internally. You have clearly identified that power causes the injectors to be open = when they should not. So there appears only two possibilities to me at = this point. 1. You have an unintentional ground in your wiring which completes the = circuit for the injector - which only the EC2 injector drivers should = do. 2. There is a problem with the EC2, however, this is least likely. = While there have been folks who thought the problem was with the EC2, in = 99% of those cases, it was a different problem.=20 I presume that the fuel ending up in the engine is not from the squirt = that the transit power-on condition causes. That should only happen = once as you turn it on and your fuel pump should bring the pressure = right back up. In fact with the pump running you'll never notice the = transit pressure drop. The only thing I can think to recommend is to turn your power off, = remove the injector power fuse and unplug all your injector connectors = from their injectors and 1. with a Ohm meter check to see that Neither terminal of any connector = shows a ground (must do this independently for each of the two terminals = on each injector connector). There should be NO ground on either = terminal of a connector, this will confirm that you do not have a wiring = problem. - however, while unlikely - you could still have an internal = injector solenoid coil short to ground. So continue with the next step. 2. Plug the connectors back on the injectors one at a time and after = each time - again check the terminals of that connector now installed on = the injector to see that there is no grounding of the circuit. IF you = get a ground indication after you have plugged a connector back on to = an injector then that injector likely has an internal short to ground. 3. Unplug your harness as Rusty Suggested from the EC2 and do a similar = check. =20 Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Leonard=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 12:22 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B - No start problem Thanks Ed and Rusty. Now comes the dreaded work of tracking down my = wiring error. I had earlier suspected a problem because when ever there = was power to the main buss the light on the EC2 would come on, = indicating there was power to the EC2 coming through the injectors. = Tracy said this was normal, but maybe he was thinking that the engine = was running. I am sure that the injectors are open because the system = will not hold pressure unless I remove the fuses to the injectors. But = remove the fuses on the hot side of the injectors and the light on the = EC2 goes out and the system holds pressure. This happens with either = the primary or the secondary injectors. I am also having trouble picturing where I could have gone wrong in = the wiring. It seems unlikely to me that I could have grounded all 4 of = the injector leads. Your idea about testing with the main connector = unplugged is a good place to start. But assuming that checks out OK (no = ground with the connector unplugged), I really would have no idea what = to do next. I can't believe that I would put all 4 injector leads in = the wrong hole. BTW, I did not install an injector disable switch. David Leonard The Rotary Roster: http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Russell Duffy Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 6:31 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B - No start problem With the injectors connected to the main buss, when ever there is = power to the injectors they are OPEN!!! This occurs even when the EC2 = does not have power. As I was trying to adjust my fuel pressure and = check for leaks (there were only 4 ;-) I had about 10 min of pump = running time with the injectors open before I discovered the issue. Now = I'm sure I have quite a puddle of fluid inside the intake and rotor = chambers.=20 Hi David, I agree with Ed, and everyone else who said the injectors should not = be open just because they have power on them. Are you sure they were = open, or did you measure 12V on them and assume they were open? =20 Try this- turn the power back on to the injectors, and measure from = each connection on the injector to ground with a voltmeter. As Ed = indicated, you should see 12V on both connections to show that the = injector is off. If you see 12V on one, and ground on the other, unplug = the main EC-2 connector and check again. If you still have ground on = one side, you have inadvertently grounded the injectors in your wiring = somewhere, which will cause an extremely high idle speed :-) Good luck. Rusty (I want to make noise again) ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3FE01.E17C7BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Welcome, David
 
    Yes, Tracy is = correct, there is=20 an unintended  "sneak" circuit in the EC2 that permits = power to=20 the EC2 through the injectors, however, while that provides power to the = EC2, it=20 will not trigger the injectors unless the EC2 is = getting a signal=20 from the crankangle sensor that engine is running..  Tracy thought = that=20 folks would turn off their EC2 by turning off the Master switch thereby = killing=20 all power to the EC2 and injectors  - however, some of us"fooled" = him and=20  have a switch for the EC2 power as well as disabling switches for = the=20 injectors.  You really should reconsider installing the disabling = switches=20 as they really help in trouble shooting.
 
But, in any case, there is a = possibility that you=20 are wired correctly and have one bad injector.  It only takes one = injector=20  stuck open to quickly drain the pressure out of the fuel = line.  I had=20 a bad injector which would stick open intermittently and it about drove = me nuts=20 trying to figure out what was causing my problem until finally one day = it stuck=20 open on a ground run up and I was able to identify the bad one.  = However, I=20 don't really think that is your problem, else, removing the fuse would = make no=20 difference unless the injector is grounding itself = internally.
 
You have clearly identified that power = causes the=20 injectors to be open when they should not.  So there appears only = two=20 possibilities to me at this point.
 
1.  You have an unintentional = ground in your=20 wiring which completes the circuit for the injector - which only the EC2 = injector drivers should do.
 
2.  There is a problem with the = EC2, however,=20 this is least likely.  While there have been folks who thought the = problem=20 was with the EC2, in 99% of those cases, it was a different problem.=20
 
 
I presume that the fuel ending up in = the engine is=20 not from the squirt that the transit power-on condition causes.  = That=20 should only happen once as you turn it on and your fuel pump should = bring the=20 pressure right back up.  In fact with the pump running you'll never = notice=20 the transit pressure drop.
 
The only thing I can think to recommend = is to turn=20 your power off, remove the injector power fuse and unplug all your = injector=20 connectors from their injectors and
 
1. with a Ohm meter check to see = that Neither=20 terminal of any connector shows a ground (must do this = independently=20 for each of the two terminals on each injector = connector).  There=20 should be NO ground on either terminal of a connector, this will confirm = that=20 you do not have a wiring problem. - however, while unlikely - you could = still=20 have an internal injector solenoid coil short to ground. So continue = with the=20 next step.
 
2.  Plug the connectors back = on the=20 injectors one at a time and after each time - again check = the terminals of=20 that connector now installed on the injector  to  see = that there=20 is no grounding of the circuit.  IF you get a ground = indication after=20  you have plugged a connector back on to an injector then that = injector likely has an internal short to ground.
 
3.  Unplug your harness as Rusty = Suggested=20 from the EC2 and do a similar check.
 
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David=20 Leonard
Sent: Saturday, February 28, = 2004 12:22=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B - = No start=20 problem

Thanks=20 Ed and Rusty.  Now comes the dreaded work of tracking down my = wiring=20 error.  I had earlier suspected a problem because when ever there = was=20 power to the main buss the light on the EC2 would come on, indicating = there=20 was power to the EC2 coming through the injectors.  =20 Tracy said this = was=20 normal, but maybe he was thinking that the engine was running.  I = am sure=20 that the injectors are open because the system will not hold pressure = unless I=20 remove the fuses to the injectors.  But remove the fuses on the = hot side=20 of the injectors and the light on the EC2 goes out and the system = holds=20 pressure.  This happens with either the primary or the secondary=20 injectors.

 

I am also = having=20 trouble picturing where I could have gone wrong in the wiring.  = It seems=20 unlikely to me that I could have grounded all 4 of the injector = leads. =20 Your idea about testing with the main connector unplugged is a good = place to=20 start.  But assuming that checks out OK (no ground with the = connector=20 unplugged), I really would have no idea what to do next.  I = can=92t believe=20 that I would put all 4 injector leads in the wrong hole.  BTW, I = did not=20 install an injector disable switch.

 

David=20 Leonard

The Rotary=20 Roster:

http://memb= ers.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Russell=20 Duffy
Sent: Saturday, February 28, = 2004 6:31=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: 13B - No start problem

 

With the=20 injectors connected to the main buss, when ever there is power to the=20 injectors they are OPEN!!!  This occurs even when the EC2 does = not have=20 power.  As I was trying to adjust my fuel pressure and check for = leaks=20 (there were only 4 ;-) I had about 10 min of pump running time with = the=20 injectors open before I discovered the issue.  Now I'm sure I = have quite=20 a puddle of fluid inside the intake and rotor=20 chambers. 

Hi=20 David,

 

I agree = with Ed, and=20 everyone else who said the injectors should not be open just because = they have=20 power on them.  Are you sure they were open, or did you measure = 12V on=20 them and assume they were open? 

 

Try this- = turn the=20 power back on to the injectors, and measure from each connection on = the=20 injector to ground with a voltmeter.  As Ed indicated, you should = see 12V=20 on both connections to show that the injector is off.  If you see = 12V on=20 one, and ground on the other, unplug the main EC-2 connector and check = again.  If you still have ground on one side, you have = inadvertently=20 grounded the injectors in your wiring somewhere, which will cause an = extremely=20 high idle speed :-)

 

Good=20 luck.

Rusty (I = want to make=20 noise again)

 

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3FE01.E17C7BC0--