X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-m10.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.86] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6470151 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 10 Sep 2013 19:29:51 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.86; envelope-from=shipchief@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.201]) by omr-m10.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 8A92D70137DCE for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2013 19:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-ddb003a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-ddb003.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.52.73]) by mtaomg-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id CF17BE000094 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2013 19:29:15 -0400 (EDT) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8D07C94B2ADC324_17F4_1A389_webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 38022-STANDARD Received: from 174.61.189.169 by webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com (205.188.17.37) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 10 Sep 2013 19:29:15 -0400 Message-Id: <8D07C94B2A43DA0-17F4-78B6@webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [174.61.189.169] Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 19:29:15 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1378855756; bh=MbB0qO6KzXLePfSslXaX6BcfyOuRWXhMwQc5d0a7lCI=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Hf/iw1Ofd3JnJjuj/Aguhuc4H3DPtk7+yePIAW+EEpudkSVH7ktyK5UES4LLik7XF o3JIKJVABkH5GG22aCRpkDy9A5GdO4dzlAJNMC7hhJjx55f5lfxpu3G6I8/rjUJAEA QxQd+5gm1bjb9Ml5nha5tQ7nHdCAjUneYRinVmxU= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c9522fab4b0810 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8D07C94B2ADC324_17F4_1A389_webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Today was more productive. I advanced the timing before I even started it, = warmed it up and ran it up over 4000 RPM a few times to make sure it would = operate smoothly during timing with my wife at the controls. Then I stood b= y the engine and operated the timing light while giving hand signals to Mar= ilyn. Eventually, after a few tries, I got it set to 19 BTDC @ 4000 RPM. Then I assembled the top cowl and did some tethered trials. I knew I couldn= 't remember the details. I took a few iphone pics. Crumby photos, but reada= ble data: 3082 RPM @ 18.2" Hg 3328 RPM @ 20.8" Hg 3472 RPM @ 21.6" Hg 3756 RPM @ 24.8" Hg 4329 RPM @ 32.0" Hg @ 8.5 GPH **** then I leaned the mixture and it went to= : 4389 RPM @ 30.9" Hg @ 7.8 GPH=20 Then I untied it and did a few high speed taxi tests, with initial boost in= tended to be limited to 32", but I did see some excursions to 37". I have a= ll the pieces to make the Blow Off Valve, which should limit boost to about= 38". One run was rough running when I advanced the throttle, I had it rich= for better idle. After I figured that out, I got a good start on the next = high speed taxi with middle mixture setting, so I'm getting closer. Lots of= re-reading the EC-2 manual. I used Russell Proflex hose for the oil system, the swivels seem to be lo= osening and one at the oil pump outlet seems to seep on some runs and not o= thers. So I need to rethink that. maybe I shouldn't be using swivel fitting= s. My confidence is much improved. -----Original Message----- From: shipchief To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 7:54 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters Tracy; I set the static timing as per your EC-2 instructions, it started and ran g= reat at low power. I checked it at 3000 RPM with a timing light, and it was= about 35 BTDC. The pulse counter was near the back of the travel limit so= I moved it back a gear tooth and set it about 23 BTDC @ 3000 RPM (tight ag= ainst the advance stop). I reread your EC-2 manual, and set it back some mo= re. Now it runs better at low RPM, but needs to be richer. So the next chan= ce I had was yesterday, when I checked the timing as I mentioned.=20 How much advance occurs across the RPM spectrum? It seems to me there is a= retarded timing point at idle (or 0 TDC), then above some number, maybe 15= 00 RPM it advances about 10 degrees? then about 2500 rpm it starts to advan= ce some more, about 5 degrees more @ 3000 RPM?=20 It would be helpful to know what to set the base timing at while cranking o= ver the engine with the injectors turned off. Also what the advance is at various RPMs, along with knowing the vacuum adv= ance (5 degrees below 22" Hg) =20 -----Original Message----- From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 6:36 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters If your ignition timing measurement was accurate at 3000 rpm and 16" mp, i= t's way too retarded. What did you set the static timing to? Remember th= at that has nothing to do with actual ignition timing. It's just a referen= ce point for the computer. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Sep 9, 2013, at 21:13, shipchief@aol.com wrote: Thank all of you for the constructive comments. My Prop is a Catto 68X74, the same as for a 180 HP Lycoming O-360, except i= t's left turning due the Tracy's 2.19:1 reduction gear. I should expect to = get 2200 static RPM with it, 4818 engine RPM. The turbocharger is a Turbonetics 60-1 with a TO4-E turbine, with P trim .8= 1 A/R on center housing. Although I did briefly throttle up to 37" Hg, I'm not sure what the RPM was= at that moment. Before I blew up the first version of the engine. I did ge= t above 4800 RPM on a tethered trial. The oil temp rose quite rapidly. The = manifold pressure for that run was 44" Hg. I'm concerned that as the aircra= ft speeds up, the propeller will unload and the RPM will increase, as it wi= ll, causing an increase in exhaust flow, increase in boost, increase in int= ake temp, and another detonation incident. =20 The run where I described checking the timing maxed out at 3000 RPM, where= my hat blew off, is where I saw 11 degree BTDC and 16" Hg. My wife was in = the driver's seat while I was using the strobe light on the pulley. So thes= e numbers are ballpark numbers. I had the top cowl off to read the timing. = Last time I ran to 4000 RPM with the top cowl off, the oil cooler air diffu= ser flew off. I'll do better next time. I have fastened the air diffusers so the next tim= e I should be able to run at the 4000 RPM mandated in the EC-2 manual, wher= e I will be above the mode 6 set point of 22" Hg. I'll find out what the cu= rrent timing actually is, verify the Mode 8 timing is set to the mid point,= and do another run to set the final timing to the 19 degrees recommended o= r something a little less to be on the safe side. If I am too retarded now,= I'll feel the difference in the following full cowl trial to the previousl= y tested settings and if all goes well, higher power. I'll also follow that= advice to vary power to make sure the engine performs well and won't quit = due to transitions. -----Original Message----- From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 1:58 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters You are either over propped or something is wrong with the engine or tuning= . At 37" mp you should be in the 5500-6000 rpm range. You didn't give = the rpm at 16" mp and 11 deg BTDC so I can't tell if timing is in the ballp= ark or not. Is that the same rpm as your hat blew off (3000)? If so, you = may be too retarded. And of course we need your prop numbers to make a guess about anything. Pr= op chord at 70% on blade is good to know too. Do you have one of those wid= e chord airboat type props? Tracy Sent from my iPad On Sep 9, 2013, at 0:47, shipchief@aol.com wrote: I've been slowly building my RV-8 with 13BT engine for about 14 years...! On June 13th 2013 it received the coveted Airworthiness Certificate. That s= ame day I detonated my engine due to the trailing spark plug holes being ma= chined oversize in an attempt to improve the single spark plug power, shoul= d the leading plug ignition fail. This, and possibly advanced ignition, and= possibly over-boost detonated my engine on it's first high power taxi test= . That took about 2.5 seconds. Now I've rebuilt the engine with new unmodified rotor housings, and it runs= better than ever. I've re-marked the timing marks on the pulley, and reset= the timing, though not to 4000 RPM yet. today I checked it. At 3000 RPM my= hat and hearing protection blew off. 11 degrees BTDC, and 16" manifold pre= ssure. I've been taxiing around at modest RPM, it's great. I've consistently been = idling at about 1600 RPM, (730 prop RPM) and sometimes as low as 1490, (680= Prop RPM) smoothly. That is slow enough to keep the brakes from getting to= o hot. I've done run ups and brief bursts of power to 4200 Engine RPM, (1917 Prop = RPM) which is about 32" manifold pressure, and seen 37" manifold pressure b= riefly. I know this is not enough power to take off, although I have done a= Pre-take off to 50 MPH with this power before powering down with roll out = to the end of the runway. I suppose it would fly off and maybe clear the t= rees at this power. I've lifted the tail, and rocked the wings with the ail= erons. It steers well and the brakes work.=20 The water level in the engine stays up between flights as does the oil, and= the water temp today was consistent 163 F oil about 173 with the highest = observed 183F. I did about 4 pre-take off passes with taxi back, with excel= lent temperature control and throttle response.=20 A couple of oil fitting were tightened looking for an oil seep. 7.3 hours engine running time on the EM2, about 2 hours since the engine ov= erhaul. I don't think I'm at all ready to fly this thing. I'm missing something, so= offer up some advice, I'm all ears! ----------MB_8D07C94B2ADC324_17F4_1A389_webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Today was more productive. I advanced the timing before I even started= it, warmed it up and ran it up over 4000 RPM a few times to make sure it w= ould operate smoothly during timing with my wife at the controls. Then=  I stood by the engine and operated the timing light while giving hand= signals to Marilyn. Eventually, after a few tries, I got it set to 19 BTDC= @ 4000 RPM.
Then I assembled the top cowl and did some tethered trials. I kne= w I couldn't remember the details. I took a few iphone pics. Crumby photos,= but readable data:
3082 RPM @ 18.2" Hg
3328 RPM @ 20.8" Hg
3472 RPM @ 21.6" Hg
3756 RPM @ 24.8" Hg
4329 RPM @ 32.0" Hg @ 8.5 GPH **** then I leaned the mixture and = it went to:
4389 RPM @ 30.9" Hg @ 7.8 GPH 
Then I untied it and did a few high speed taxi tests, with initial boo= st intended to be limited to 32", but I did see some excursions to 37". I h= ave all the pieces to make the Blow Off Valve, which should limit boost to = about 38". One run was rough running when I advanced the throttle, I had it= rich for better idle. After I figured that out, I got a good start on the = next high speed taxi with middle mixture setting, so I'm getting closer. Lo= ts of re-reading the EC-2 manual.
 I used Russell Proflex hose for the oil system,  the swivel= s seem to be loosening and one at the oil pump outlet seems to seep on some= runs and not others. So I need to rethink that. maybe I shouldn't be using= swivel fittings.
My confidence is much improved.
-----Original Message-----
From: shipchief <shipchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 7:54 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters

Tracy;
I set the static timing as per your EC-2 instructions, it started= and ran great at low power. I checked it at 3000 RPM with a timing light, = and it was about 35 BTDC.  The pulse counter was near the back of the = travel limit so I moved it back a gear tooth and set it about 23 BTDC = @ 3000 RPM (tight against the advance stop). I reread your EC-2 manual= , and set it back some more. Now it runs better at low RPM, but needs = to be richer. So the next chance I had was yesterday, when I checked t= he timing as I mentioned.
 How much advance occurs across the RPM spectrum? It seems to me = there is a retarded timing point at idle (or 0 TDC), then above some number= , maybe 1500 RPM it advances about 10 degrees? then about 2500 rpm it start= s to advance some more, about 5 degrees more @ 3000 RPM?
It would be helpful to know what to set the base timing at while = cranking over the engine with the injectors turned off.
Also what the advance is at various RPMs, along with knowing the = vacuum advance (5 degrees below 22" Hg)
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 6:36 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters

If your ignition timing measurement was accurate at 3000 rpm and 16" m= p,  it's way too retarded.  What did you set the static timing to= ?   Remember that that has nothing to do with actual ignition timing. =  It's just a reference point for the computer.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 9, 2013, at 21:13, shipchief@ao= l.com wrote:

Thank all of you for the constructive comments.
My Prop is a Catto 68X74, the same as for a 180 HP Lycoming O-360, exc= ept it's left turning due the Tracy's 2.19:1 reduction gear. I should expec= t to get 2200 static RPM with it, 4818 engine RPM.
The turbocharger is a Turbonetics 60-1 with a TO4-E turbine, with P tr= im .81 A/R on center housing.
Although I did briefly throttle up to 37" Hg, I'm not sure what the RP= M was at that moment. Before I blew up the first version of the engine. I d= id get above 4800 RPM on a tethered trial. The oil temp rose quite rapidly.= The manifold pressure for that run was 44" Hg. I'm concerned that as the a= ircraft speeds up, the propeller will unload and the RPM will increase, as = it will, causing an increase in exhaust flow, increase in boost, increase i= n intake temp, and another detonation incident.
 
 The run where I described checking the timing maxed out at 3000 = RPM, where my hat blew off, is where I saw 11 degree BTDC and 16"= Hg. My wife was in the driver's seat while I was using the strobe light on= the pulley. So these numbers are ballpark numbers. I had the top cowl off = to read the timing. Last time I ran to 4000 RPM with the top cowl off, the = oil cooler air diffuser flew off.
I'll do better next time. I have fastened the air diffusers so the nex= t time I should be able to run at the 4000 RPM mandated in the EC-2 manual,= where I will be above the mode 6 set point of 22" Hg. I'll find out what t= he current timing actually is, verify the Mode 8 timing is set to the = mid point, and do another run to set the final timing to the 19 degrees rec= ommended or something a little less to be on the safe side. If I am too ret= arded now, I'll feel the difference in the following full cowl trial to the= previously tested settings and if all goes well, higher power. I'll a= lso follow that advice to vary power to make sure the engine performs well = and won't quit due to transitions.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 1:58 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters

You are either over propped or something is wrong with the engine or t= uning.   At 37" mp you should be in the 5500-6000  rpm range. &nb= sp; You didn't give the rpm at 16" mp and 11 deg BTDC so I can't tell if ti= ming is in the ballpark or not.  Is that the same rpm as your hat blew= off (3000)?  If so, you may be too retarded.

And of course we need your prop numbers to make a guess about anything= .  Prop chord at 70% on blade is good to know too.  Do you have o= ne of those wide chord airboat type props?

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 9, 2013, at 0:47, shipchief@aol= .com wrote:

I've been slowly buildi= ng my RV-8 with 13BT engine for about 14 years...!
On June 13th 2013 it received the coveted Airworthiness Certifica= te. That same day I detonated my engine due to the trailing spark plug hole= s being machined oversize in an attempt to improve the single spark plug po= wer, should the leading plug ignition fail. This, and possibly advanced ign= ition, and possibly over-boost detonated my engine on it's first high power= taxi test. That took about 2.5 seconds.
Now I've rebuilt the engine with new unmodified rotor housings, and it= runs better than ever. I've re-marked the timing marks on the pulley, and = reset the timing, though not to 4000 RPM yet. today I checked it. At 3000 R= PM my hat and hearing protection blew off. 11 degrees BTDC, and 16" manifol= d pressure.
I've been taxiing around at modest RPM, it's great. I've consistently = been idling at about 1600 RPM, (730 prop RPM) and sometimes as low as = 1490, (680 Prop RPM) smoothly. That is slow enough to keep the brakes = from getting too hot.
I've done run ups and brief bursts of power to 4200 Engine RPM, (1917 = Prop RPM) which is about 32" manifold pressure, and seen 37" manifold press= ure briefly. I know this is not enough power to take off, although I have&n= bsp;done a Pre-take off to 50 MPH with this power before powering down=  with roll out to the end of the runway.  I suppose it would= fly off and maybe clear the trees at this power. I've lifted the tail, and= rocked the wings with the ailerons. It steers well and the brakes work.
The water level in the engine stays up between flights as does th= e oil, and the water temp today was consistent 163 F oil  about 173 wi= th the highest observed 183F. I did about 4 pre-take off passes with taxi b= ack, with excellent temperature control and throttle response.
A couple of oil fitting were tightened looking for an oil seep.
7.3 hours engine running time on the EM2, about 2 hours since the engi= ne overhaul.
I don't think I'm at all ready to fly this thing. I'm missing somethin= g, so offer up some advice, I'm all ears!
----------MB_8D07C94B2ADC324_17F4_1A389_webmail-d243.sysops.aol.com--