X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-m05.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.79] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.6) with ESMTPS id 6441984 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 26 Aug 2013 11:36:18 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.79; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.137]) by omr-m05.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 023DE700D4E90 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2013 11:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-mob005b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mob005.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.194.209]) by mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 344AEE000086 for ; Mon, 26 Aug 2013 11:35:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Full-name: Lehanover Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2013 11:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector Location To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_e81f7.64b1afc2.3f4ccfcb_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.7 sub 1028 X-Originating-IP: [173.88.5.72] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1377531341; bh=WWYBB1T6LXcSIS+is+KYLzGXfI1NKq5RICiNmsoA3kw=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=rdjlT/AMs8zNsW7JOUgGTFZ9KL8VOj8Yx7sxw4iuWEfhB85ExXfwElzjWyJgTxneJ VcDR7HT+grIL4Np0M7DgUCjNGO+GW6epjx1G1//QOHhbg3v4L1SM6t6mdkn0Vgt3M9 o5SYAAxlNYHQupEonElHmQqFas/R2xICkLaP16so= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d3389521b75cd6dc1 --part1_e81f7.64b1afc2.3f4ccfcb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Crickets? =20 Intake systems are typically designed to have the highest possible flow=20 velocity right at the valve pocket or, in our case, the port opening. So, = the=20 ideal runner would be a long tube of smoothly reducing diameter right to= =20 the port opening. The manifold gasket in my 250 HP Daryl Drummond 12-A bridgeport is the stock gasket. The runners=20 inside the irons are nearly stock. Cleaned up well on the outsides of turns, and a proper shape for open and= =20 closing timing. The higher the velocity the smoother the runner needs to= =20 be. A change in velocity is a loss of energy. A change to higher, or a cha= nge=20 to lower, all the same, a loss of energy. The higher the velocity the=20 greater the effect of any disparity in the surface. Except where you want = the=20 flow to stay attached. For example around the inside of a bend, or even a= =20 180 degree bend. Those runners are very complex. Note the ports on any lat= e=20 model Chevy head. Ports shaped like the letter "D" with the flat back of t= he=20 "D" being the short radius of the turn. You can play with this stuff on a= =20 flow bench and a pile of childs modeling clay. You can even find flow goin= g=20 backwards along the short radius while flow along the outside of the turn= =20 going twice what the average velocity is. So, in some systems the short =20 side in round and "D" shaped ports and runners, you may see tiny holes dril= led =20 or bits of metal stood up with a triangular chisel into the flow like=20 vortex generators. This to hold boundary layer tight against the inner wal= l and=20 keep the outside wall flow at a more constant velocity. Air and fuel air= =20 mixtures have mass, and tend to comply with the rules of centrifugal force= .=20 It tends to flow only along the outside of turns with no regard for what w= e=20 want or what makes us happy. =20 =20 You can make profiles of the runner shape at stations along it's length.= =20 Use 1/8" squares on poster board and a long dowel glued through the center= =20 to start with. Have one former for the start shape and one for the end=20 shape. Like the port opening at the manifold face on the iron. Now even if= you=20 have "D" shapes in your runners, you can maintain the cross sectional=20 area. Or, you can just forget all of this and use a tube of constant=20 diameter and the engine will run fine. Crickets? =20 Lynn E. Hanover=20 =20 =20 In a message dated 8/26/2013 10:21:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, =20 echristley@att.net writes: Tom, I located my primaries in the stock position on the block. I have my= =20 controller using the primaries exclusively at idle. My working theory is= =20 to first get the fuel into the combustion chamber, and then to have it as= =20 close to completely evaporated as possible. Having the primaries squirtin= g=20 almost directly into the chamber insures that the miniscule amount of idle= =20 fuel actually ends up in the chamber. Once I hit 2k RPM, the secondaries start progressively sharing the load,= =20 until they're delivering half the fuel at 4k. The secondaries are located= =20 further back in the runners. By the time the engine is running this fast,= =20 the air is moving much faster in the runners than at idle, so locating the= m=20 further back gives the fuel more time to evaporate. I have the engine running smoothly from idle to 5400 while doing static = =20 run-ups. On 08/23/2013 05:45 PM, Thomas Mann wrote: Hey Chris ..... appreciate it.=20 =20 You don=E2=80=99t happen to know what size tubes you have (Primary & Secon= dary)? =20 I think I=E2=80=99m getting close to formulating a plan. I=E2=80=99ve gotte= n some input =20 from John and Bonzai Racing but the Fly Rotary list has been little help. = =20 Mostly just crickets there. =20 Thanks again. =20 T Mann =20 Sent from my ASUS TF600T using Windows 8 50% Brighter than any iPad =20 =20 From: Chris Barber Sent: =E2=80=8EFriday=E2=80=8E, =E2=80=8EAugust=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8E23=E2=80= =8E, =E2=80=8E2013 =E2=80=8E4=E2=80=8E:=E2=80=8E34=E2=80=8E =E2=80=8EPM To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 I took some shots of my engine last night. I will try to post them on the= =20 canard aviation site.=20 Chris Sent from my iPhone 5 On Aug 23, 2013, at 7:56, "Thomas Mann" __=20 (mailto:thomasmann51@gmail.com) wrote: > I wonder why nobody sets up the second set of injectors the same way the= =20 primaries are setup (i.e. shoot through the iron into the intake port. ) > That would sure simplify things and pretty much match up the fuel=20 delivery method. > =20 > Is there a logical/rational reason this isn't configured in this manner? > ......or .... has someone already done this? > =20 > T Mann -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --part1_e81f7.64b1afc2.3f4ccfcb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Crickets?
 
Intake systems are typically designed to have t= he=20 highest possible flow velocity right at the valve pocket or, in our case, t= he=20 port opening. So, the ideal runner would be a long tube of smoothly reducin= g=20 diameter right to the port opening. The manifold gasket in=20 my
250 HP Daryl Drummond 12-A bridgeport is the st= ock=20 gasket. The runners inside the irons are nearly stock.
Cleaned up well on the outsides of turns, and= =20 a proper shape for open and closing timing. The higher the velocity th= e=20 smoother the runner needs to be. A change in velocity is a loss of energy. = A=20 change to higher, or a change to lower, all the same, a loss of energy.&nbs= p;The=20 higher the velocity the greater the effect of any disparity in the surface.= =20 Except where you want the flow to stay attached. For example around the ins= ide=20 of a bend, or even a 180 degree bend. Those runners are very complex. Note = the=20 ports on any late model Chevy head. Ports shaped like the letter = "D"=20 with the flat back of the "D" being the short radius of the turn. You can p= lay=20 with this stuff on a flow bench and a pile of childs modeling clay. You can= even=20 find flow going backwards along the short radius while flow along the outsi= de of=20 the turn going twice what the average velocity is. So, in some systems the = short=20 side in round and "D" shaped ports and runners, you may see tiny holes dril= led=20 or bits of metal stood up with a triangular chisel into the flow like vorte= x=20 generators. This to hold boundary layer tight against the inner wall and ke= ep=20 the outside wall flow at a more constant velocity. Air and fuel air mixture= s=20 have mass, and tend to comply with the rules of centrifugal force. It tends= to=20 flow only along the outside of turns with no regard for what we want or wha= t=20 makes us happy.  
 
You can make profiles of the runner shape at st= ations=20 along it's length. Use 1/8" squares on poster board and a long dowel glued= =20 through the center to start with. Have one former for the start shape and o= ne=20 for the end shape. Like the port opening at the manifold face on the iron. = Now=20 even if you have "D" shapes in your runners, you can maintain the cross=20 sectional
area. Or, you can just forget all of this and u= se a=20 tube of constant diameter and the en= gine=20 will run fine. Crickets?
 
Lynn E. Hanover 
 
In a message dated 8/26/2013 10:21:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 echristley@att.net writes:
=
Tom, I located my primaries in the stock pos= ition=20 on the block.  I have my controller using the primaries exclusively = at=20 idle.  My working theory is to first get the fuel into the combustio= n=20 chamber, and then to have it as close to completely evaporated as=20 possible.  Having the primaries squirting almost directly into the= =20 chamber insures that the miniscule amount of idle fuel actually ends up i= n the=20 chamber.

Once I hit 2k RPM, the secondaries start progressively sh= aring=20 the load, until they're delivering half the fuel at 4k.  The seconda= ries=20 are located further back in the runners.  By the time the engine is= =20 running this fast, the air is moving much faster in the runners than at i= dle,=20 so locating them further back gives the fuel more time to evaporate.
<= BR>I=20 have the engine running smoothly from idle to 5400 while doing static=20 run-ups.


On 08/23/2013 05:45 PM, Thomas Mann wrote:
Hey Chris ..... appreciate it.
 
You don=E2=80=99t happen to know what size tubes you have (Primary= &=20 Secondary)?
 
I think I=E2=80=99m getting close to formulating a plan. I=E2=80= =99ve gotten some input=20 from John and Bonzai Racing but the Fly Rotary list has been little hel= p.=20 Mostly just crickets there.
 
Thanks again.
 
T Mann
 
Sent from my ASUS TF600T using Windows 8
50% Brighter than any= =20 iPad
 
From: Chris=20 Barber
Sent: =E2=80=8EFriday=E2=80=8E, =E2=80=8EAugust= =E2=80=8E =E2=80=8E23=E2=80=8E, =E2=80=8E2013 =E2=80=8E4=E2=80=8E:=E2=80=8E= 34=E2=80=8E=20 =E2=80=8EPM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
 
I took some shots of my engine last night. I will try = to=20 post them on the canard aviation site.

Chris

Sent from m= y=20 iPhone 5

On Aug 23, 2013, at 7:56, "Thomas Mann" <thomasmann51@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

> I wonder why nobody sets up the second set of inject= ors=20 the same way the primaries are setup (i.e. shoot through the iron into = the=20 intake port. )
> That would sure simplify things and pretty much = match=20 up the fuel delivery method.
> 
> Is there a=20 logical/rational reason this isn't configured in this manner?
>= =20 ......or .... has someone already done this?
> 
> T= =20 Mann

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Arc= hive=20 and UnSub:   htt= p://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

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