X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.129.170.194] (HELO VIRCOM1.FCDATA.PRIVATE) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.6) with ESMTP id 6441154 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 15:23:55 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE (unverified [172.16.5.23]) by VIRCOM1.FCDATA.PRIVATE (Vircom SMTPRS 5.22.7.16456) with ESMTP id for ; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 14:22:27 -0500 X-Modus-BlackList: 172.16.5.23=OK;cbarber@texasattorney.net=OK X-Modus-RBL: 172.16.5.23=Excluded X-Modus-Trusted: 172.16.5.23=NO X-Modus-Audit: FALSE;0;0;0 Received: from FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::809d:a06e:5913:452e]) by FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::697f:d6aa:b87:78d8%17]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Sun, 25 Aug 2013 14:24:38 -0500 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft CC: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil pressure Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil pressure Thread-Index: AQHOob1cRVmEQPrp8US1NNdct4V1lJmmTZ5n Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 19:23:16 +0000 Message-ID: <945C451F-2ACC-4874-A2E5-E3D5885D5291@texasattorney.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_945C451F2ACC4874A2E5E3D5885D5291texasattorneynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_945C451F2ACC4874A2E5E3D5885D5291texasattorneynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Rich. I have the book somewhere. I will take a look. I am NOT using = the front cover gasket which has been recommended as well. Sent from my iPhone 5 On Aug 25, 2013, at 13:01, "ARGOLDMAN@aol.com" > wrote: Chris, Been following your oil pressure saga and certainly sympathize with you and= your quest. The answer may be found in Tracy's book "Aviators guide to Mazda Rotary con= version. It seems that he ran into a similar problem in his quest to get these thing= s to work properly. On page 97 - 99 the talks about the change in the front gasket design which= predisposes the "O" ring to get damaged and leak. I didn't pay much attent= ion to this problem as he stated that sometime later Mazda had some sort of= solution and I have an Renesis. Perhaps this is the problem with which you are dealing. Take a look Rich In a message dated 8/24/2013 2:58:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time, cbarber@te= xasattorney.net writes: Kelly, I am not sure if the orifice is closed off. I have removed the oil meterin= g pump as I pre-mix. I have a plate over the mounting place of the oil pum= p....is that what you refer to? It does not sound as if this is what you m= ean. The metering pump drive gear IS still in place. Can you provide more information on the orifice. A picture would be great = but I know that's a long shot. Thanks for the input. My mind is wielding chasing this gremlin. I am thin= king everything from this, to a hose being placed incorrectly on the oil co= oler (I know I followed what was on the diagram I had) to a cracked oil gal= ley on the iron or housing. I really can't afford a new/different engine b= ut hell, I may nickel and dime my way to the poor house the way I am going. Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Kelly Troyer [keltro@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 11:17 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil pressure Chris, A shot in the dark here...........This is presuming you have removed the= oil metering pump and are premixing 2 cycle oil in the fuel..............I= f so did you block the oil feed orifice from the front (rear in your ship) ir= on to the front cover...........This oriface will bleed off some pressure (= I do not know how much) if not blocked and if the metering pump drive gear is also r= emoved will probably bleed off even more..............Tracy might be able to shed more educated light on this theory............FWIW Kelly Troyer On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Chris Barber > wrote: I continue to have a real problem with oil pressure. I have tried everythi= ng I can think of and, I think, everything that has been suggested here and= elsewhere (nopiston, RX7 club, Mazdatrix, web and phone, Racing Beat) to n= o avail. My efforts may have increased pressure for a very short while but= the pressure has not come up to proper levels (depending on which regulato= r, stock 2nd gen or the 100lb replacement I installed) nor does it stay hig= her. The new pressure regulator, rated at 100lbs, I installed brought the = pressure up to about 70lbs for a very short while but has again dropped to= a little over 20 at idle and not getting to 30lbs at 6000 rpm (only at 600= 0 rpm for a short while to determine if any progress, I do worry, especiall= y about the PSRU-RDb). Oil is flowing as indicated by the system heating u= p. This is a second gen, turbo engine. Here it the list of what I have tried and some data points. 1. Yes, the front cover oil ring has been addressed, several times. I hav= e replaced it a few times now, WITH and without the silicone ring around it= . I have had it disappear, however, I have now installed a brass tube tapp= ed and screwed into the engine to minimize the o-ring being blown out. I h= ave checked this install to ensure it has not been restricting anything. it= does not seem to be as I have run the engine, then removed the front cover= and all was well, including the o-ring and silicone ring and it did not se= em to hurt the iron or front cover. 2. The front cover does not seem warped or damaged. 3. I have replaced the rear pressure regulator with the 100lb version and = modified the front bypass spring by placing the washers (2) provided by Maz= datrix. 4. I have verified that the oil pan pickup is not clogged and that it is s= ecurely safety wired to the engine and that the seal (no gasket but gray RT= V) is secure. 5. I have replaced the oil pump with a new one from Mazdatrix. 6. I have verified the oil pump "key" is properly inserted and that the ge= ar is secure and torqued properly and that the washer is bent as it should = be. I don't recall if I applied RTV between the pump and block but I would= think I did....this being the problem by oil seeping out is a stretch but = I am considering all a can think off. 7. I have cleaned and inspected the stock oil cooler and it flows well. 8. I have removed the front secondary oil cooler that is installed in the = front of my canard for cabin heat to simplify plumbing. Trhis eleminated ab= out four hoses as it was plumbed in parallel 9. The oil filter has been replaced with a new K&N 3001 filter. The remot= e filter mount has been checked and not problems are noted. I have also ru= n the engine for a short while bypassing the oil filter to determine if it = was causing a blockage as my oil pressure sensors located after the filter.= The oil pressure did raise some, but only about 5 to 10 lbs. 10. I have checked that all the hoses flow freely. 11. The e-shaft was modified removing the stock spring to use jets for bet= ter oil flow. I remember verify their install at the last tear-down. 12. I purchased all the iron (end and center) and rotor housings new from = Mazdatrix a while back. 13. The front and rear bearing have been replaced new. I thought maybe tha= t they were worn (or damaged) but with talking with Mazdatrix they said the= y bearings would have to have much more significant wear than would usually= be had in not competitive use. They said this was a very unlikely cause. 14. The original location of the oil filter is modified but the use of the= Mistral intake that provides an o-ring seal and passage in place of the st= ock filter. 15. The turbo supply on the top of the engine and return oil passage on th= e front cover have been capped off as I have removed the turbo as I test th= e engine and until I can have produced a more robust turbo manifold as my f= irst one failed from power pulses/heat. 16. I have had not noticeable leaks from the engine. 17. I wondered if perhaps I left a seal off somewhere during the last rebu= ild. I thought perhaps the o-rings that go around the dowls that go throug= h the engine....which I do NOT think happened. Matratrix stated that if th= ese were left out, I would be visibly leaking out the engine. Okay, that is what I can think of for now. Please, what insight might y'al= l have. This does not seem to be an issue limited to a rotary but it is a = problem with my rotary so I may cross post. Forgive me if you must drudge = your way on other sites. Is there a way to pressure test the oil system? My thought is that if I tr= ied to pressure test it that the oil would simply move around the bearings = and such as designed and thus not "pump-up". If I could, perhaps the pumpi= ng up would show an internal leak as about the only thing I can think of is= that an internal passage is cracked allowing oil to leak out back into the= pan and not allowing proper pressure to develop. But, like I said the iron= is new (well, a few years old now but purchased new then). I know factory= parts can fail as I had the thin water channel passage break in the first = hour with a new center plate when I bought the other parts. Mazdatrix repl= aced it. I am at a complete loss. I have started the ancillary tear down in prepara= tion to remove the engine from the plane for a better look, but since I am = not certain what else to look for, I feel like I am spinning my wheels. I = believe I have been methodical but if not, or I am missing things, please s= peak up. I have been grounded for the last few months at a nearby airport where I am= having to drop an extra $250.00 am month for hangar space. I lost the eng= ine over the airport due to an unrelated fuel blockage in the fuel rail but= since the pressure was notably down, I want to address it before I try to = fly home...if that ever friken happens....sigh. I would sure like to be th= rowing that money at a nicer plane and not this circle I feel I am in. Thanks everyone. All the best, Chris Barber Houston, GSOT Velocity SE/FG Rotary 13b Ellington Feild EFD and Pearland Municiple LVJ --_000_945C451F2ACC4874A2E5E3D5885D5291texasattorneynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Rich. I have the book somewhere. I will take a look. I am NOT u= sing the front cover gasket which has been recommended as well. 

Sent from my iPhone 5

On Aug 25, 2013, at 13:01, "ARGOL= DMAN@aol.com" <ARGOLDMAN@a= ol.com> wrote:

Chris,

Been following your oil pressure saga and certainly sympathize with you and= your quest.

The answer may be found in Tracy's book "Aviators guide to Mazda Rotar= y conversion.

It seems that he ran into a similar problem in his quest to get these thing= s to work properly.

On page 97 - 99 the talks about the change in the front gasket design which= predisposes the "O" ring to get damaged and leak. I didn't pay m= uch attention to this problem as he stated that sometime later Mazda had so= me sort of solution and I have an Renesis.

Perhaps this is the problem with which you are dealing.

Take a look
 
Rich
 
In a message dated 8/24/2013 2:58:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time, cbarber@texasattorney.net writes:

Kelly,

 

I am not sure if the orifice is closed off.  I have removed the oil= metering pump as I pre-mix.  I have a plate over the mounting place o= f the oil pump....is that what you refer to?  It does not sound as if = this is what you mean.  The metering pump drive gear IS still in place.

 

Can you provide more information on the orifice.  A picture would b= e great but I know that's a long shot.

 

Thanks for the input.  My mind is wielding chasing this gremlin.&nb= sp; I am thinking everything from this, to a hose being placed incorrectly = on the oil cooler (I know I followed what was on the diagram I had) to a cr= acked oil galley on the iron or housing.  I really can't afford a new/different engine but hell, I may nickel and di= me my way to the poor house the way I am going.

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on= behalf of Kelly Troyer [keltro@gmail.c= om]
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 11:17 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil pressure

Chris,
   A shot in the dark here...........This is presuming you h= ave removed the oil metering pump and are premixing 2 cycle oil in the fuel= ..............If 
so did you block the oil feed orifice from the front (rear in your shi= p) iron to the front cover...........This oriface will bleed off some press= ure (I do not
know how much) if not blocked and if the metering pump drive gear is a= lso removed will probably bleed off even more..............Tracy might be a= ble
to shed more educated light on this theory............FWIW

Kelly Troyer


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net>= wrote:
I conti= nue to have a real problem with oil pressure.  I have tried everything= I can think of and, I think, everything that has been suggested here and e= lsewhere (nopiston, RX7 club, Mazdatrix, web and phone, Racing Beat) to no avail.  My efforts may have increas= ed pressure for a very short while but the pressure has not come up to prop= er levels (depending on which regulator, stock 2nd gen or the 100lb replace= ment I installed) nor does it stay higher.  The new pressure regulator, rated at 100lbs, I installed brought the press= ure up  to about 70lbs for a very short while but has again dropped to= a little over 20 at idle and not getting to 30lbs at 6000 rpm (only at 600= 0 rpm for a short while to determine if any progress, I do worry, especially about the PSRU-RDb).  Oil is = flowing as indicated by the system heating up.

This is a second gen, turbo engine.

Here it the list of what I have tried and some data points.

1.  Yes, the front cover oil ring has been addressed, several times.&n= bsp; I have replaced it a few times now, WITH and without the silicone ring= around it.  I have had it disappear, however, I have now installed a = brass tube tapped and screwed into the engine to minimize the o-ring being blown out.  I have checked this install to = ensure it has not been restricting anything. it does not seem to be as I ha= ve run the engine, then removed the front cover and all was well, including= the o-ring and silicone ring and it did not seem to hurt the iron or front cover.

2.  The front cover does not seem warped or damaged.

3.  I have replaced the rear pressure regulator with the 100lb version= and modified the front bypass spring by placing the washers (2) provided b= y Mazdatrix.

4.  I have verified that the oil pan pickup is not clogged and that it= is securely safety wired to the engine and that the seal (no gasket but gr= ay RTV) is secure.

5.  I have replaced the oil pump with a new one from Mazdatrix.

6.  I have verified the oil pump "key" is properly inserted = and that the gear is secure and torqued properly and that the washer is ben= t as it should be.  I don't recall if I applied RTV between the pump a= nd block but I would think I did....this being the problem by oil seeping out is a stretch but I am considering all a can think off.<= br>
7.  I have cleaned and inspected the stock oil cooler and it flows wel= l.

8.  I have removed the front secondary oil cooler that is installed in= the front of my canard for cabin heat to simplify plumbing. Trhis eleminat= ed about four hoses as it was plumbed in parallel

9.  The oil filter has been replaced with a new K&N 3001 filter.&n= bsp; The remote filter mount has been checked and not problems are noted.&n= bsp; I have also run the engine for a short while bypassing the oil filter = to determine if it was causing a blockage as my oil pressure sensors located after the filter.  The oil pressure did rais= e some, but only about 5 to 10 lbs.

10.  I have checked that all the hoses flow freely.

11.  The e-shaft was modified removing the stock spring to use jets fo= r better oil flow.  I remember verify their install at the last tear-d= own.

12.  I purchased all the iron (end and center) and rotor housings new = from Mazdatrix a while back.

13.  The front and rear bearing have been replaced new. I thought mayb= e that they were worn (or damaged) but with talking with Mazdatrix they sai= d they bearings would have to have much more significant wear than would us= ually be had in not competitive use.  They said this was a very unlikely cause.

14.  The original location of the oil filter is modified but the use o= f the Mistral intake that provides an o-ring seal and passage in place of t= he stock filter.

15.  The turbo supply on the top of the engine and return oil passage = on the front cover have been capped off as I have removed the turbo as I te= st the engine and until I can have produced a more robust turbo manifold as= my first one failed from power pulses/heat.

16.  I have had not noticeable leaks from the engine.

17.  I wondered if perhaps I left a seal off somewhere during the last= rebuild.  I thought perhaps the o-rings that go around the dowls that= go through the engine....which I do NOT think happened.  Matratrix st= ated that if these were left out, I would be visibly leaking out the engine.

Okay, that is what I can think of for now.  Please, what insight might= y'all have.  This does not seem to be an issue limited to a rotary bu= t it is a problem with my rotary so I may cross post.  Forgive me if y= ou must drudge your way on other sites.

Is there a way to pressure test the oil system?  My thought is that if= I tried to pressure test it that the oil would simply move around the bear= ings and such as designed and thus not "pump-up".  If I coul= d, perhaps the pumping up would show an internal leak as about the only thing I can think of is that an internal passage is crac= ked allowing oil to leak out back into the pan and not allowing proper pres= sure to develop. But, like I said the iron is new (well, a few years old no= w but purchased new then).  I know factory parts can fail as I had the thin water channel passage break in th= e first hour with a new center plate when I bought the other parts.  M= azdatrix replaced it.

I am at a complete loss.  I have started the ancillary tear down in pr= eparation to remove the engine from the plane for a better look, but since = I am not certain what else to look for, I feel like I am spinning my wheels= .  I believe I have been methodical but if not, or I am missing things, please speak up.

I have been grounded for the last few months at a nearby airport where I am= having to drop an extra $250.00 am month for hangar space.  I lost th= e engine over the airport due to an unrelated fuel blockage in the fuel rai= l but since the pressure was notably down, I want to address it before I try to fly home...if that ever friken = happens....sigh.  I would sure like to be throwing that money at a nic= er plane and not this circle I feel I am in.

Thanks everyone.

All the best,

Chris Barber
Houston, GSOT
Velocity SE/FG
Rotary 13b
Ellington Feild EFD and Pearland Municiple LVJ





--_000_945C451F2ACC4874A2E5E3D5885D5291texasattorneynet_--