X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.6) with ESMTP id 6439956 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 24 Aug 2013 07:50:21 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=PogRnnw3 c=1 sm=0 a=8784VxN1RgZhBaSzA3ibpA==:17 a=KWPSR_H0u7wA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=NR7FCg7LQ28A:10 a=oCcaPWc0AAAA:8 a=LJ-3vcDKxSq6GzRJCJUA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=cPo68DevUiIB-RyZ:21 a=zCZMWjB3Lnbohnn6:21 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=DgUjlgjGc2v6bv3pxcMA:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=yOi-flE2dQxzrLZ6:21 a=ZWfasu9Flz_YuRst:21 a=G6XkT2H3mTu4MhVW:21 a=8784VxN1RgZhBaSzA3ibpA==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Authenticated-User: X-Originating-IP: 174.110.171.30 Received: from [174.110.171.30] ([174.110.171.30:62198] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id F3/D0-02184-BDD98125; Sat, 24 Aug 2013 11:49:47 +0000 Message-ID: <685F29CC46CE492D97D6152357215F17@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Oil pressure Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2013 07:49:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01CEA09E.70F51570" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3508.205 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3508.205 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01CEA09E.70F51570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, I may have missed in your list, but have you checked the pressure = controller (near the oil pump) as opposed to the Pressure regulator near = the gear box (=E2=80=9Crear=E2=80=9D of engine). That Controller = normally releases pressure when it exceeds some high value (I think = around 150 psi). But, if it is leaking sticking open for some reason = that would lower your pressure through out the system. Ed From: Chris Barber=20 Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 9:12 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil pressure I continue to have a real problem with oil pressure. I have tried = everything I can think of and, I think, everything that has been = suggested here and elsewhere (nopiston, RX7 club, Mazdatrix, web and = phone, Racing Beat) to no avail. My efforts may have increased pressure = for a very short while but the pressure has not come up to proper levels = (depending on which regulator, stock 2nd gen or the 100lb replacement I = installed) nor does it stay higher. The new pressure regulator, rated = at 100lbs, I installed brought the pressure up to about 70lbs for a = very short while but has again dropped to a little over 20 at idle and = not getting to 30lbs at 6000 rpm (only at 6000 rpm for a short while to = determine if any progress, I do worry, especially about the PSRU-RDb). = Oil is flowing as indicated by the system heating up. This is a second gen, turbo engine. Here it the list of what I have tried and some data points. 1. Yes, the front cover oil ring has been addressed, several times. I = have replaced it a few times now, WITH and without the silicone ring = around it. I have had it disappear, however, I have now installed a = brass tube tapped and screwed into the engine to minimize the o-ring = being blown out. I have checked this install to ensure it has not been = restricting anything. it does not seem to be as I have run the engine, = then removed the front cover and all was well, including the o-ring and = silicone ring and it did not seem to hurt the iron or front cover. 2. The front cover does not seem warped or damaged. 3. I have replaced the rear pressure regulator with the 100lb version = and modified the front bypass spring by placing the washers (2) provided = by Mazdatrix. 4. I have verified that the oil pan pickup is not clogged and that it = is securely safety wired to the engine and that the seal (no gasket but = gray RTV) is secure. 5. I have replaced the oil pump with a new one from Mazdatrix. 6. I have verified the oil pump "key" is properly inserted and that the = gear is secure and torqued properly and that the washer is bent as it = should be. I don't recall if I applied RTV between the pump and block = but I would think I did....this being the problem by oil seeping out is = a stretch but I am considering all a can think off. 7. I have cleaned and inspected the stock oil cooler and it flows well. 8. I have removed the front secondary oil cooler that is installed in = the front of my canard for cabin heat to simplify plumbing. Trhis = eleminated about four hoses as it was plumbed in parallel=20 9. The oil filter has been replaced with a new K&N 3001 filter. The = remote filter mount has been checked and not problems are noted. I have = also run the engine for a short while bypassing the oil filter to = determine if it was causing a blockage as my oil pressure sensors = located after the filter. The oil pressure did raise some, but only = about 5 to 10 lbs. 10. I have checked that all the hoses flow freely. 11. The e-shaft was modified removing the stock spring to use jets for = better oil flow. I remember verify their install at the last tear-down. 12. I purchased all the iron (end and center) and rotor housings new = from Mazdatrix a while back. 13. The front and rear bearing have been replaced new. I thought maybe = that they were worn (or damaged) but with talking with Mazdatrix they = said they bearings would have to have much more significant wear than = would usually be had in not competitive use. They said this was a very = unlikely cause. 14. The original location of the oil filter is modified but the use of = the Mistral intake that provides an o-ring seal and passage in place of = the stock filter.=20 15. The turbo supply on the top of the engine and return oil passage on = the front cover have been capped off as I have removed the turbo as I = test the engine and until I can have produced a more robust turbo = manifold as my first one failed from power pulses/heat. 16. I have had not noticeable leaks from the engine. 17. I wondered if perhaps I left a seal off somewhere during the last = rebuild. I thought perhaps the o-rings that go around the dowls that go = through the engine....which I do NOT think happened. Matratrix stated = that if these were left out, I would be visibly leaking out the engine. Okay, that is what I can think of for now. Please, what insight might = y'all have. This does not seem to be an issue limited to a rotary but = it is a problem with my rotary so I may cross post. Forgive me if you = must drudge your way on other sites. Is there a way to pressure test the oil system? My thought is that if I = tried to pressure test it that the oil would simply move around the = bearings and such as designed and thus not "pump-up". If I could, = perhaps the pumping up would show an internal leak as about the only = thing I can think of is that an internal passage is cracked allowing oil = to leak out back into the pan and not allowing proper pressure to = develop. But, like I said the iron is new (well, a few years old now but = purchased new then). I know factory parts can fail as I had the thin = water channel passage break in the first hour with a new center plate = when I bought the other parts. Mazdatrix replaced it. I am at a complete loss. I have started the ancillary tear down in = preparation to remove the engine from the plane for a better look, but = since I am not certain what else to look for, I feel like I am spinning = my wheels. I believe I have been methodical but if not, or I am missing = things, please speak up. I have been grounded for the last few months at a nearby airport where I = am having to drop an extra $250.00 am month for hangar space. I lost = the engine over the airport due to an unrelated fuel blockage in the = fuel rail but since the pressure was notably down, I want to address it = before I try to fly home...if that ever friken happens....sigh. I would = sure like to be throwing that money at a nicer plane and not this circle = I feel I am in. Thanks everyone. All the best, Chris Barber Houston, GSOT Velocity SE/FG Rotary 13b Ellington Feild EFD and Pearland Municiple LVJ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3211/6603 - Release Date: = 08/23/13 ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01CEA09E.70F51570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris, I may have missed in your list, but have you checked the = pressure=20 controller (near the oil pump) as opposed to the Pressure regulator near = the=20 gear box (=E2=80=9Crear=E2=80=9D of engine).  That Controller = normally releases pressure=20 when it exceeds some high value (I think around 150 psi).  But, if = it is=20 leaking sticking open for some reason that would lower your pressure = through out=20 the system.
 
Ed
 
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 9:12 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil pressure
 
I=20 continue to have a real problem with oil pressure.  I have tried = everything=20 I can think of and, I think, everything that has been suggested here and = elsewhere (nopiston, RX7 club, Mazdatrix, web and phone, Racing Beat) to = no=20 avail.  My efforts may have increased pressure for a very short = while but=20 the pressure has not come up to proper levels (depending on which = regulator,=20 stock 2nd gen or the 100lb replacement I installed) nor does it stay=20 higher.  The new pressure regulator, rated at 100lbs, I installed = brought=20 the pressure up  to about 70lbs for a very short while but has = again=20 dropped to a little over 20 at idle and not getting to 30lbs at 6000 rpm = (only=20 at 6000 rpm for a short while to determine if any progress, I do worry,=20 especially about the PSRU-RDb).  Oil is flowing as indicated by the = system=20 heating up.

This is a second gen, turbo engine.

Here it = the list=20 of what I have tried and some data points.

1.  Yes, the = front cover=20 oil ring has been addressed, several times.  I have replaced it a = few times=20 now, WITH and without the silicone ring around it.  I have had it=20 disappear, however, I have now installed a brass tube tapped and screwed = into=20 the engine to minimize the o-ring being blown out.  I have checked = this=20 install to ensure it has not been restricting anything. it does not seem = to be=20 as I have run the engine, then removed the front cover and all was well, = including the o-ring and silicone ring and it did not seem to hurt the = iron or=20 front cover.

2.  The front cover does not seem warped or=20 damaged.

3.  I have replaced the rear pressure regulator = with the=20 100lb version and modified the front bypass spring by placing the = washers (2)=20 provided by Mazdatrix.

4.  I have verified that the oil pan = pickup=20 is not clogged and that it is securely safety wired to the engine and = that the=20 seal (no gasket but gray RTV) is secure.

5.  I have replaced = the oil=20 pump with a new one from Mazdatrix.

6.  I have verified the = oil pump=20 "key" is properly inserted and that the gear is secure and torqued = properly and=20 that the washer is bent as it should be.  I don't recall if I = applied RTV=20 between the pump and block but I would think I did....this being the = problem by=20 oil seeping out is a stretch but I am considering all a can think=20 off.

7.  I have cleaned and inspected the stock oil cooler = and it=20 flows well.

8.  I have removed the front secondary oil = cooler that=20 is installed in the front of my canard for cabin heat to simplify = plumbing.=20 Trhis eleminated about four hoses as it was plumbed in parallel =

9. =20 The oil filter has been replaced with a new K&N 3001 filter.  = The=20 remote filter mount has been checked and not problems are noted.  I = have=20 also run the engine for a short while bypassing the oil filter to = determine if=20 it was causing a blockage as my oil pressure sensors located after the=20 filter.  The oil pressure did raise some, but only about 5 to 10=20 lbs.

10.  I have checked that all the hoses flow=20 freely.

11.  The e-shaft was modified removing the stock = spring to=20 use jets for better oil flow.  I remember verify their install at = the last=20 tear-down.

12.  I purchased all the iron (end and center) = and rotor=20 housings new from Mazdatrix a while back.

13.  The front and = rear=20 bearing have been replaced new. I thought maybe that they were worn (or = damaged)=20 but with talking with Mazdatrix they said they bearings would have to = have much=20 more significant wear than would usually be had in not competitive = use. =20 They said this was a very unlikely cause.

14.  The original = location=20 of the oil filter is modified but the use of the Mistral intake that = provides an=20 o-ring seal and passage in place of the stock filter.

15.  = The=20 turbo supply on the top of the engine and return oil passage on the = front cover=20 have been capped off as I have removed the turbo as I test the engine = and until=20 I can have produced a more robust turbo manifold as my first one failed = from=20 power pulses/heat.

16.  I have had not noticeable leaks from = the=20 engine.

17.  I wondered if perhaps I left a seal off = somewhere=20 during the last rebuild.  I thought perhaps the o-rings that go = around the=20 dowls that go through the engine....which I do NOT think happened.  = Matratrix stated that if these were left out, I would be visibly leaking = out the=20 engine.

Okay, that is what I can think of for now.  Please, = what=20 insight might y'all have.  This does not seem to be an issue = limited to a=20 rotary but it is a problem with my rotary so I may cross post.  = Forgive me=20 if you must drudge your way on other sites.

Is there a way to = pressure=20 test the oil system?  My thought is that if I tried to pressure = test it=20 that the oil would simply move around the bearings and such as designed = and thus=20 not "pump-up".  If I could, perhaps the pumping up would show an = internal=20 leak as about the only thing I can think of is that an internal passage = is=20 cracked allowing oil to leak out back into the pan and not allowing = proper=20 pressure to develop. But, like I said the iron is new (well, a few years = old now=20 but purchased new then).  I know factory parts can fail as I had = the thin=20 water channel passage break in the first hour with a new center plate = when I=20 bought the other parts.  Mazdatrix replaced it.

I am at a = complete=20 loss.  I have started the ancillary tear down in preparation to = remove the=20 engine from the plane for a better look, but since I am not certain what = else to=20 look for, I feel like I am spinning my wheels.  I believe I have = been=20 methodical but if not, or I am missing things, please speak up.

I = have=20 been grounded for the last few months at a nearby airport where I am = having to=20 drop an extra $250.00 am month for hangar space.  I lost the engine = over=20 the airport due to an unrelated fuel blockage in the fuel rail but since = the=20 pressure was notably down, I want to address it before I try to fly = home...if=20 that ever friken happens....sigh.  I would sure like to be throwing = that=20 money at a nicer plane and not this circle I feel I am in.

Thanks = everyone.

All the best,

Chris Barber
Houston, = GSOT
Velocity=20 SE/FG
Rotary 13b
Ellington Feild EFD and Pearland Municiple=20 LVJ

No virus found in this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3392 / = Virus=20 Database: 3211/6603 - Release Date: = 08/23/13

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