X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-m08.mx.aol.com ([64.12.222.129] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6347308 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:32:18 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.222.129; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.204]) by omr-m08.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 951CD700000A3 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-mob002a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mob002.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.194.197]) by mtaomg-db06.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 59CF5E000086 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:31:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Full-name: Lehanover Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 00:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Blown engine To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_a9934.38243c19.3efa772e_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.7 sub 55 X-Originating-IP: [173.88.28.139] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1372134703; bh=YkExe0WkOgs9ItMx+IyHwsnz6yCVHAg+z5EFGATo5Oc=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=FJGRr374vXHvwqj/P4pb9fZNTz5yLfc6t8PRUZk7G51uePo5b4kv9D4KXuk/xIDnc 0VNqzF6A8pasbpvgiOhcABwcKfGm025vpKYKN/7W/zZbZ/s0ZR2TTaNL/NpN+jzhxK Ap19D6YO3K8lHooIlLfRniZMewo6UHFt9eGCjpeA= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:474697376:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33cc51c91d2f4dbb --part1_a9934.38243c19.3efa772e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In all out race cars it is typical to run zero split between leading and trailing. The split was a trick to get better HC numbers at idle and low RPM. In stock classes they do see a small HP improvement but HC at low RPM is not a factor a 5,500 to 6,000 RPM cruise. Plus firing both at once makes ignition systems a bit more simple, and if you hook the wires up backwards on one housing it has no effect at all. Center electrode wear is affected if you use just one double ended coil for one housing. So, you reverse the wires half way through the plug life to even things out. One plug is always firing backwards you see. The leading plugs can both fire at once in the lost spark situation (stock setup on many models of Mazda). The trailing plugs must be distributed because an apex seal will be between the plugs on one housing or the other and if that trailing plug were to fire even accidentally, the next charge would ignite and try to stop the rotor. Very bad MOJO. In boosted engines no split is run at all. It starts to look like a detonation event. Detonation: An auto ignition event that starts after and away from the planned ignition location and time. This would be the leading plug fires at (Say) 12 degrees BTDC for a boosted engine. The mixture burns across the rotor face in a smooth rolling flame front and as it does so pressure builds and with pressure comes heat of compression along with radiant energy from the roaring fire is also heating the yet unburned mixture. So, the combination of heat sources passes by the auto ignition temperature and a second ignition point lights off. This could be a too hot a spark plug tip. A hot carbon spot on the rotor or just a random location. This second event has occurred in a much hotter location and in a higher pressure, superheated mixture. Usually close to an apex seal. In some cases the apex seal will take a few hits like this and not shear off. But not for long. The collision of the two flame fronts can be heard if muffling is adequate. Like a hand full of pea gravel poured onto the hood of your car. Pre-ignition. Any ignition event that occurs before the planned ignition event. They are twin brothers. Preignition leads to Detonation. Detonation leads to Preignition. Download the Racing Beat catalogue. All of this stuff is in there. It is free. Lynn E Hanover Incinerating rotary engines since 1980. In a message dated 6/24/2013 10:24:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, shipchief@aol.com writes: Lynn, Tracy, David and Jeff; Thanks for your perspectives. Lynn, based on your note, I may have experienced Detonation, plug wire cross fire, high intake temp due to no intercooler, and I may have had the leading & trailing plug wires switched on the rear rotor (tip seal damaged rotor). I noticed that one when removing the engine) I originally misstated that the rear side housing cracked (it was the front side housing, which is near the fire wall. my bad) But the rear rotor (near the flywheel) broke all the tip seals and may have had switched lead/trail plug wires. Confused? I have a TO4E P trim cartridge with .81 AR on-center exhaust housing. It has a 60-1 compressor. I have been warned that the AR is too tight, so I just ordered a 1.30 AR exhaust housing. I plan to go back together with stock port '87 side housings to get a slightly slower idle (previously street ported). I have 8.5:1 '87 turbo rotors. I did not set the timing by strobe timing light. 4000 RPM with the tail tethered is too scary for me. That's wailing with no one I can trust sitting in the seat. I set it via the EM2 for best RPM @ about 3500 RPM. Questions: Tracy, 1) Does the EM2 fire both L & T plugs at the same time, or is there a difference? 2) What is the static timing, or some lower RPM timing value I can check without scaring myself to inaction? I would like to check it while cranking over with the fuel injectors and pumps shut off. --part1_a9934.38243c19.3efa772e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In all out race cars it is typical to run zero split between= =20 leading and trailing. The split was a trick to get better HC numbers at idl= e and=20 low RPM. In stock classes they do see a small HP improvement but HC at low = RPM=20 is not a factor a 5,500 to 6,000 RPM cruise. Plus firing both at once makes= =20 ignition systems a bit more simple, and if you hook the wires up backwards = on=20 one housing it has no effect at all. Center electrode wear is affected if y= ou=20 use just one double ended coil for one housing. So, you reverse the wires h= alf=20 way through the plug life to even things out. One plug is always firing=20 backwards you see. The leading plugs can both fire at once in the lost spar= k=20 situation (stock setup on many models of Mazda).  The trailing pl= ugs=20 must be distributed because an apex seal will be between the plugs on one= =20 housing or the other and if that trailing plug were to fire even accidental= ly,=20 the next charge would ignite and try to stop the rotor. Very bad MOJO.=20
 
In boosted engines no split is run at all. It starts to look l= ike a=20 detonation event.
 
Detonation:
 An auto ignition event that starts after and away from t= he=20 planned ignition location and time. This would be the leading plug fires at= =20 (Say) 12 degrees BTDC for a boosted engine. The mixture burns across the ro= tor=20 face in a smooth rolling flame front and as it does so pressure builds and = with=20 pressure comes
heat of compression along with radiant energy from the roaring= fire=20 is also heating the yet unburned mixture. So, the combination of heat= =20 sources passes by the auto ignition temperature and a second ignition point= =20 lights off. This could be a too hot a spark plug tip. A hot carbon spot on = the=20 rotor or just a random location.
 
This second event has occurred in a much hotter location and i= n a=20 higher pressure, superheated mixture. Usually close to an apex seal. In som= e=20 cases the apex seal will take a few hits like this and not shear off. But n= ot=20 for long. The collision of the two flame fronts can be heard if muffling is= =20 adequate. Like a hand full of pea gravel poured onto the hood of your car.= =20
 
Pre-ignition. Any ignition event that occurs before the planne= d=20 ignition event. They are twin brothers. Preignition leads to Detonation.=20 Detonation leads to Preignition.
 
Download the Racing Beat catalogue. All of this stuff is in th= ere.=20 It is free.
 
Lynn E Hanover
Incinerating rotary
engines since 1980.
 
In a message dated 6/24/2013 10:24:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 shipchief@aol.com writes:
=
Lynn, Tracy, David and=20 Jeff;
Thanks for your perspectives. Lynn, based on your note, I may h= ave=20 experienced Detonation, plug wire cross fire, high intake temp due to no= =20 intercooler, and I may have had the leading & trailing plug wires swi= tched=20 on the rear rotor (tip seal damaged rotor). I noticed that one when= =20 removing the engine)
I originally misstated that the rear side housing cracked (it was th= e=20 front side housing, which is near the fire wall. my bad) But the rear rot= or=20 (near the flywheel) broke all the tip seals and may have had switched=20 lead/trail plug wires.
Confused?
I have a TO4E P trim cartridge with .81 AR on-center exhaust=20 housing.    It has a 60-1 compressor. I have been war= ned=20 that the AR is too tight, so I just ordered a 1.30 AR exhaust housing. I = plan=20 to go back together with stock port '87 side housings to get a slightly s= lower=20 idle (previously street ported). I have 8.5:1 '87 turbo rotors.
I did not set the timing by strobe timing light. 4000 RPM with the t= ail=20 tethered is too scary for me. That's wailing with no one I can trust sitt= ing=20 in the seat. I set it via the EM2 for best RPM @ about 3500 RPM.
Questions: Tracy,
1)  Does the EM2 fire both L & T plugs at the same time, or= is=20 there a difference?
2)  What is the static timing, or some lower RPM timing value I= can=20 check without scaring myself to inaction? I would like to check it while= =20 cranking over with the fuel injectors and pumps shut off.
 
 
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