X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.27.228] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6085859 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:25:28 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.27.228; envelope-from=hoursaway1@comcast.net Received: from omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.27]) by qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 5D9H1l0050b6N64AFDQsbB; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:24:52 +0000 Received: from sz0081.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 5DQr1l00o2yr1eL8PDQrE4; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:24:51 +0000 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:24:51 +0000 (UTC) From: hoursaway1@comcast.net To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <1282809633.1614852.1361928291704.JavaMail.root@sz0081a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1614851_385567976.1361928291703" X-Originating-IP: [::ffff:68.40.10.159] X-Mailer: Zimbra 6.0.13_GA_2944 (ZimbraWebClient - IE8 (Win)/6.0.13_GA_2944) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20121106; t=1361928292; bh=MSmIIZLf0ugg10Rqycl5KruZ+fE8JpfD6OAgYpVJNKo=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=TLkmd23lUuts8YUORRSS2nIHZvonpF0ogKGDY+cKxDiidc3+lf2kJVnF2WZsV4W+d tUTr4F1uPrRd4GAoJU6mCcje53Gcpg2IMotByNugD8oMeD5i4NSlgH7YiHU8iVXBSh KQO2pftiGY9OdXkHTpEIU18wQilEDQb1GjHPKg10154qFAAd5fMFHeZVLodH0bNGZZ C4tU46q8SlfWLmamB4KBKFnKNqVuFzWdjbCH1cQl2RAr5+T1N4a2n5HEZx4K9OGqCL RP9M/NHrrEAQN6lMUXO5FFqUf7IMcC82N9mWEiL4RHZBZ6J1oJsxg2a1V3uwLd9AJQ I+0mvK+9Z9qkw== ------=_Part_1614851_385567976.1361928291703 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ken, =C2=A0I changed the design of the Ivoprop brush plate to match that of= MT Prop, I liked the vertical plate instead of the horizontal plate that I= vo had on my prop, brings the prop back to very near what was intended by V= ans Aircraft in the cowl design.=C2=A0 Will send photos direct to you ( to = large for flyrotary blog ).=C2=A0=C2=A0 David R. Cook=C2=A0 RV6A=C2=A0 Rota= ry,=C2=A0 Lansing MI.=C2=A0 foot of snow coming tonight.=20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Johnson" =20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:18:26 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location=20 Hi Gordon,=20 I had to go out and reweigh my Ivoprop.=C2=A0 I do not know if you are fami= liar with this prop?=C2=A0 The blades are made of carbon fiber and do not w= eigh much.=C2=A0 A metal blade (shaft) runs down the center of each blade.= =C2=A0 An electric motor applies force to the metal blades inside each carb= on fiber blade, which twists the blades, changing the pitch of each blade.= =C2=A0 The term used is an in-flight-electrical adjustable pitch prop.=C2= =A0 The motor and contact discs on the center shaft make up most of the wei= ght.=C2=A0 All together the 3 carbon blades and motor prop system weigh abo= ut 7 lbs.=C2=A0 Their placement is about a foot out further anterior than i= f I used a Lycoming engine.=C2=A0 Ken Johnson=20 From: Gordon Alling =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 7:58 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location=20 Hi Ken,=20 =C2=A0=20 Thanks for your info.=C2=A0 You are correct that I am trying to determine t= he position of the engine for proper aircraft CG location.=C2=A0 At the mom= ent, I=E2=80=99m trying to design the engine mount truss for the design loa= ds.=C2=A0 If I know the weight and CG location of the engine/prop assembly,= I can model the loading in truss analysis software and play =E2=80=9Cwhat = if=E2=80=9D games with different truss configurations.=C2=A0 Your 300 Lb. f= igure for the engine/redrive assembly and your heat exchanger weights is a = start.=C2=A0 What does your IVO prop weigh?=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 Thanks again for the help.=20 =C2=A0=20 Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE=20 President=20 acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc.=20 =C2=A0=20 540-786-2200=20 www.acumen-ea.com=20 =C2=A0=20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Kenneth Johnson=20 Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 7:02 PM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location=20 =C2=A0=20 Hi Gordon,=20 I am not certain what you are asking.=C2=A0 It would seem you are asking if= you can use a DIY engine mount, and therefore, you are asking how far from= the firewall should you place your engine?=C2=A0 This is what I found with= my engine.=C2=A0 I am using a 13B NA engine with a PowerSport redrive.=C2= =A0 The weight of my engine and redrive is 295 lbs.=C2=A0 My radiator weigh= s 15 lbs and the oil cooler weights 7 lbs.=C2=A0 I found that when adding t= he weight of the radiator and oil cooler fluids, that my engine system woul= d come very close to the weight of a Lycoming 360.=C2=A0 It was estimated t= hat the average weight of the prop would be 27 lbs.=C2=A0 My Ivoprop weighs= less than that, but the prop is positioned much farther anterior than with= a Lycoming because of the redrive.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So, the arm is out there.= =C2=A0 Tracy's point on the cg of the engine being positioned just inside t= he first end plate would be pretty accurate.=C2=A0=20 I am getting closer to finishing a Zenith 801, so I am yet unable to offer = actual flight experience.=C2=A0 Zenith did provide numbers for the installa= tion of a Lycoming 360 and I compared my numbers to theirs.=C2=A0 I had ant= icipated that I would be placing my engine a great distance from the firewa= ll because everyone says the 13B is so light.=C2=A0 However, after adding t= he weight of all the "extras," plus the fact that the arm of my prop is out= a much greater distance than with a Lycoming, I actually had to move the e= ngine closer to the firewall than if I used a Lycoming.=C2=A0 I concluded t= hat I needed to design and build my own engine mount.=20 I hope this is helpful.=20 Ken johnson=20 From: Gordon Alling < gordon@acumen-ea.com >=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net >=20 Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:07 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] 13B weight and CG location=20 =C2=A0=20 I=E2=80=99m considering a DIY engine mount for my turbo 13B engine.=C2=A0 D= oes anyone out there with an operating 13B (turbo or NA) have good numbers = for the installed weight and CG location for his/her engine/redrive/prop co= mbination?=C2=A0 I want some ballpark numbers to get started.=20 =C2=A0=20 Thanks.=20 =C2=A0=20 Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE=20 President=20 acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc.=20 =C2=A0=20 540-786-2200=20 www.acumen-ea.com=20 =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 ------=_Part_1614851_385567976.1361928291703 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div style=3D'font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>Ken, &nbs= p;I changed the design of the Ivoprop brush plate to match that of MT Prop,= I liked the vertical plate instead of the horizontal plate that Ivo had on= my prop, brings the prop back to very near what was intended by Vans Aircr= aft in the cowl design.  Will send photos direct to you ( to large for= flyrotary blog ).   David R. Cook  RV6A  Rotary, = Lansing MI.  foot of snow coming tonight.

From: "Kenneth Johnson" <kjohnsondds@yahoo.com>
To: = "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:= Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:18:26 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] R= e: 13B weight and CG location

Hi Gordon,
I had to go ou= t and reweigh my Ivoprop.  I do not know if you are familiar with this= prop?  The blades are made of carbon fiber and do not weigh much.&nbs= p; A metal blade (shaft) runs down the center of each blade.  An elect= ric motor applies force to the metal blades inside each carbon fiber blade,= which twists the blades, changing the pitch of each blade.  The term = used is an in-flight-electrical adjustable pitch prop.  The motor and = contact discs on the center shaft make up most of the weight.  All tog= ether the 3 carbon blades and motor prop system weigh about 7 lbs.  Th= eir placement is about a foot out further anterior than if I used a Lycomin= g engine.  Ken Johnson


From: Gordon Alling <gor= don@acumen-ea.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 7:= 58 AM
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: 13B weight and CG location

Hi Ken,
 
Thanks for your info.  Y= ou are correct that I am trying to determine the position of the engine for= proper aircraft CG location.  At the moment, I=E2=80=99m trying to de= sign the engine mount truss for the design loads.  If I know the weigh= t and CG location of the engine/prop assembly, I can model the loading in t= russ analysis software and play =E2=80=9Cwhat if=E2=80=9D games with differ= ent truss configurations.  Your 300 Lb. figure for the engine/redrive = assembly and your heat exchanger weights is a start.  What does your I= VO prop weigh? 
 
Thanks again for the help.
 
Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE
President
acumen= Engineering/Analysis, Inc.=
 
540-786-2200
www.acumen-ea.com
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailt= o:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kenneth Johnson
Se= nt: Sunday, February 24, 2013 7:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in ai= rcraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location=
 
Hi Gordon,
I am not certain what you are asking. = It would seem you are asking if you can use a DIY engine mount, and theref= ore, you are asking how far from the firewall should you place your engine?=   This is what I found with my engine.  I am using a 13B NA engin= e with a PowerSport redrive.  The weight of my engine and redrive is 2= 95 lbs.  My radiator weighs 15 lbs and the oil cooler weights 7 lbs.&n= bsp; I found that when adding the weight of the radiator and oil cooler flu= ids, that my engine system would come very close to the weight of a Lycomin= g 360.  It was estimated that the average weight of the prop would be = 27 lbs.  My Ivoprop weighs less than that, but the prop is positioned = much farther anterior than with a Lycoming because of the redrive. &nb= sp; So, the arm is out there.  Tracy's point on the cg of the engine b= eing positioned just inside the first end plate would be pretty accurate.&n= bsp;

I am getting closer to finishing a Zenith 801, so I am yet una= ble to offer actual flight experience.  Zenith did provide numbers for= the installation of a Lycoming 360 and I compared my numbers to theirs.&nb= sp; I had anticipated that I would be placing my engine a great distance fr= om the firewall because everyone says the 13B is so light.  However, a= fter adding the weight of all the "extras," plus the fact that the arm of m= y prop is out a much greater distance than with a Lycoming, I actually had = to move the engine closer to the firewall than if I used a Lycoming.  = I concluded that I needed to design and build my own engine mount.

I= hope this is helpful.

Ken johnson
Fr= om: Gordon Alling <gordon@acumen-ea.com>
To:<= /B> Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:07 AM
Subject: [FlyR= otary] 13B weight and CG location
 
I=E2=80=99m considering a DIY engine mount for my turbo 1= 3B engine.  Does anyone out there with an operating 13B (turbo or NA) = have good numbers for the installed weight and CG location for his/her engi= ne/redrive/prop combination?  I want some ballpark numbers to get star= ted.
 
Thanks.
 
Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE
President
ac= umen Engineering/Analysis, Inc.
 
540-786-2200
 
 
=


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