X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm15-vm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.90.254] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 6084335 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 09:19:01 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.90.254; envelope-from=kjohnsondds@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.57] by nm15.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Feb 2013 14:18:26 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.172] by tm10.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Feb 2013 14:18:26 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1028.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Feb 2013 14:18:26 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 414622.78412.bm@omp1028.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 40735 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Feb 2013 14:18:26 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1361888306; bh=zmUpeYuV9QlV9YKash6MvcvAMChzeFLwNp8RmFwSn/4=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; 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Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:18:26 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 001.001,SGkgR29yZG9uLApJIGhhZCB0byBnbyBvdXQgYW5kIHJld2VpZ2ggbXkgSXZvcHJvcC7CoCBJIGRvIG5vdCBrbm93IGlmIHlvdSBhcmUgZmFtaWxpYXIgd2l0aCB0aGlzIHByb3A_wqAgVGhlIGJsYWRlcyBhcmUgbWFkZSBvZiBjYXJib24gZmliZXIgYW5kIGRvIG5vdCB3ZWlnaCBtdWNoLsKgIEEgbWV0YWwgYmxhZGUgKHNoYWZ0KSBydW5zIGRvd24gdGhlIGNlbnRlciBvZiBlYWNoIGJsYWRlLsKgIEFuIGVsZWN0cmljIG1vdG9yIGFwcGxpZXMgZm9yY2UgdG8gdGhlIG1ldGFsIGJsYWRlcyBpbnNpZGUgZWFjaCABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.135.514 References: Message-ID: <1361888306.39182.YahooMailNeo@web125504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:18:26 -0800 (PST) From: Kenneth Johnson Reply-To: Kenneth Johnson Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="318864283-524142773-1361888306=:39182" --318864283-524142773-1361888306=:39182 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gordon,=0AI had to go out and reweigh my Ivoprop.=C2=A0 I do not know if= you are familiar with this prop?=C2=A0 The blades are made of carbon fiber= and do not weigh much.=C2=A0 A metal blade (shaft) runs down the center of= each blade.=C2=A0 An electric motor applies force to the metal blades insi= de each carbon fiber blade, which twists the blades, changing the pitch of = each blade.=C2=A0 The term used is an in-flight-electrical adjustable pitch= prop.=C2=A0 The motor and contact discs on the center shaft make up most o= f the weight.=C2=A0 All together the 3 carbon blades and motor prop system = weigh about 7 lbs.=C2=A0 Their placement is about a foot out further anteri= or than if I used a Lycoming engine.=C2=A0 Ken Johnson=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______= __________________________=0A From: Gordon Alling =0A= To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Monday= , February 25, 2013 7:58 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG lo= cation=0A =0A=0AHi Ken,=0A=C2=A0=0AThanks for your info.=C2=A0 You are corr= ect that I am trying to determine the position of the engine for proper air= craft CG location.=C2=A0 At the moment, I=E2=80=99m trying to design the en= gine mount truss for the design loads.=C2=A0 If I know the weight and CG lo= cation of the engine/prop assembly, I can model the loading in truss analys= is software and play =E2=80=9Cwhat if=E2=80=9D games with different truss c= onfigurations.=C2=A0 Your 300 Lb. figure for the engine/redrive assembly an= d your heat exchanger weights is a start.=C2=A0 What does your IVO prop wei= gh?=C2=A0 =0A=C2=A0=0AThanks again for the help.=0A=C2=A0=0AGordon C. Allin= g, Jr., PE=0APresident=0AacumenEngineering/Analysis, Inc.=0A=C2=A0=0A540-78= 6-2200=0Awww.acumen-ea.com=0A=C2=A0=0AFrom:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailt= o:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kenneth Johnson=0ASent: Sunday,= February 24, 2013 7:02 PM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft=0ASubject: [FlyR= otary] Re: 13B weight and CG location=0A=C2=A0=0AHi Gordon,=0AI am not cert= ain what you are asking.=C2=A0 It would seem you are asking if you can use = a DIY engine mount, and therefore, you are asking how far from the firewall= should you place your engine?=C2=A0 This is what I found with my engine.= =C2=A0 I am using a 13B NA engine with a PowerSport redrive.=C2=A0 The weig= ht of my engine and redrive is 295 lbs.=C2=A0 My radiator weighs 15 lbs and= the oil cooler weights 7 lbs.=C2=A0 I found that when adding the weight of= the radiator and oil cooler fluids, that my engine system would come very = close to the weight of a Lycoming 360.=C2=A0 It was estimated that the aver= age weight of the prop would be 27 lbs.=C2=A0 My Ivoprop weighs less than t= hat, but the prop is positioned much farther anterior than with a Lycoming = because of the redrive.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So, the arm is out there.=C2=A0 Tracy's= point on the cg of the engine being positioned just inside the first end p= late would be pretty accurate.=C2=A0 =0A=0AI am getting closer to finishing= a Zenith 801, so I am yet unable to offer actual flight experience.=C2=A0 = Zenith did provide numbers for the installation of a Lycoming 360 and I com= pared my numbers to theirs.=C2=A0 I had anticipated that I would be placing= my engine a great distance from the firewall because everyone says the 13B= is so light.=C2=A0 However, after adding the weight of all the "extras," p= lus the fact that the arm of my prop is out a much greater distance than wi= th a Lycoming, I actually had to move the engine closer to the firewall tha= n if I used a Lycoming.=C2=A0 I concluded that I needed to design and build= my own engine mount.=0A=0AI hope this is helpful.=0A=0AKen johnson=0A=0A__= ______________________________=0A=0AFrom:Gordon Alling =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: T= hursday, February 21, 2013 8:07 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] 13B weight and CG= location=0A=C2=A0=0AI=E2=80=99m considering a DIY engine mount for my turb= o 13B engine.=C2=A0 Does anyone out there with an operating 13B (turbo or N= A) have good numbers for the installed weight and CG location for his/her e= ngine/redrive/prop combination?=C2=A0 I want some ballpark numbers to get s= tarted.=0A=C2=A0=0AThanks.=0A=C2=A0=0AGordon C. Alling, Jr., PE=0APresident= =0AacumenEngineering/Analysis, Inc.=0A=C2=A0=0A540-786-2200=0Awww.acumen-ea= .com --318864283-524142773-1361888306=:39182 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Gordon,
I had t= o go out and reweigh my Ivoprop.  I do not know if you are familiar wi= th this prop?  The blades are made of carbon fiber and do not weigh mu= ch.  A metal blade (shaft) runs down the center of each blade.  A= n electric motor applies force to the metal blades inside each carbon fiber= blade, which twists the blades, changing the pitch of each blade.  Th= e term used is an in-flight-electrical adjustable pitch prop.  The mot= or and contact discs on the center shaft make up most of the weight.  = All together the 3 carbon blades and motor prop system weigh about 7 lbs.&n= bsp; Their placement is about a foot out further anterior than if I used a = Lycoming engine.  Ken Johnson


=
From:<= /span> Gordon Alling <gordon@acumen-ea.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary= @lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 7:58 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location
=

=0A
= Hi Ken,
 
Thanks for your info.&nb= sp; You are correct that I am trying to determine the position of the engin= e for proper aircraft CG location.  At the moment, I=E2=80=99m trying = to design the engine mount truss for the design loads.  If I know the = weight and CG location of the engine/prop assembly, I can model the loading= in truss analysis software and play =E2=80=9Cwhat if=E2=80=9D games with d= ifferent truss configurations.  Your 300 Lb. figure for the engine/red= rive assembly and your heat exchanger weights is a start.  What does your = IVO prop weigh? 
 
Thanks again for the help.
 <= /span>
Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE
President
acumen<= /b> Engi= neering/Analysis, Inc.
&nbs= p;
540-786-2200
www.acumen-ea.com
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancairon= line.net] On Behalf Of Kenneth Johnson
Sent: Sunday, Febru= ary 24, 2013 7:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location
 
Hi Gordon,
I a= m not certain what you are asking.  It would seem you are asking if yo= u can use a DIY engine mount, and therefore, you are asking how far from th= e firewall should you place your engine?  This is what I found with my= engine.  I am using a 13B NA engine with a PowerSport redrive.  = The weight of my engine and redrive is 295 lbs.  My radiator weighs 15= lbs and the oil cooler weights 7 lbs.  I found that when adding the w= eight of the radiator and oil cooler fluids, that my engine system would co= me very close to the weight of a Lycoming 360.  It was estimated that = the average weight of the prop would be 27 lbs.  My Ivoprop weighs les= s than that, but the prop is positioned much farther anterior than with a L= ycoming because of the redrive.   So, the arm is out there. = Tracy's point on the cg of the engine being positioned just inside the first end plate would be pretty accurate. 

I am getting close= r to finishing a Zenith 801, so I am yet unable to offer actual flight expe= rience.  Zenith did provide numbers for the installation of a Lycoming= 360 and I compared my numbers to theirs.  I had anticipated that I wo= uld be placing my engine a great distance from the firewall because everyon= e says the 13B is so light.  However, after adding the weight of all t= he "extras," plus the fact that the arm of my prop is out a much greater di= stance than with a Lycoming, I actually had to move the engine closer to th= e firewall than if I used a Lycoming.  I concluded that I needed to de= sign and build my own engine mount.

I hope this is helpful.

K= en johnson
From: Gordon Alling <gordon@ac= umen-ea.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:07 AM
Subject:= [FlyRotary] 13B weight and CG location=
 
<= div>
<= span style=3D"color:black;">I=E2=80=99m considering a DIY engine mount for = my turbo 13B engine.  Does anyone out there with an operating 13B (tur= bo or NA) have good numbers for the installed weight and CG location for hi= s/her engine/redrive/prop combination?  I want some ballpark numbers t= o get started.
 
Thanks.
 
Gordon C. Alling, Jr= ., PE
President
acumen Engineering/Analys= is, Inc.
 
540-78= 6-2200
 
=  


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