X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-pb0-f52.google.com ([209.85.160.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTPS id 5837601 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 21:08:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.160.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by mail-pb0-f52.google.com with SMTP id rr13so37556pbb.25 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:08:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=/6MZaZY+Q52GcElUNyGlmJuQjAYNBIg8wy2aZptUCOY=; b=Uouw6YLCYbmkEoTwWNOk1oUuNHTMmvzM0vlIWNKidSjg1lIijhSl4Z8MdylhSSofd+ zQG3EltQGIiPhBOmsuasdScdTjD648pKyiLmF0uthtqExMACb1GWeSjIyYT5W4awFQ3s C6sK5oWF/ABz9IqYHyd2lDEQaN/VI4QyhMQiKcnQyOsmPbpscH3LOK5Z3MaGalqJuojI DOBctpxrZIj/zIWdPMzL1ghGzd5YpQjPfukvCA26Sg0v7qGfVu1ZpHTKHztinKaXndNf wYvZWHHJ7zzsRDs+tfnqPuAAGJ5pdcYYylmAjABq2hmrnT5ZcFK1I0elmN3TkLwkzpNf 0+Iw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.77.201 with SMTP id u9mr30648699paw.6.1350954488574; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.4.132 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:08:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:08:08 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: flow path in conventional radiator From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d042f948a66337d04ccaf9a15 --f46d042f948a66337d04ccaf9a15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Charlie, I can't find it at the moment, but Lynn H. posted a rotary cooling schematic a while back. You may find it helpful in working out your design. As for the radiator cap on the swirl tank, that's what I've done and it works well provided it is at the high point in the system. I rarely have to add coolant to my system. A picture or sketch of your design would be helpful for the rest of us in visualizing your layout. Mark On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Charlie England wrote: > Ahhh, yes; an answer that gives a logical reason for top feeding the > rad. Thanks Mark; I figured that I must be overlooking something. > > If I move the pressure cap to the swirl tank & use the higher pressure > cap, I should be able to feed the rad normally. > > Charlie > > On 10/22/2012 06:25 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: > > Charlie, > > So, with the bottom-up flow what what happens if you get a little low on > coolant? My guess is the pump will start pumping air along with the > coolant, and eventually loose prime altogether and the remaining coolant > will stop flowing, followed shortly by a catastrophic boil-over. This may > be why auto makers favor the top-down flow design. The Mazda's water pump > is already very high up on the engine. I wouldn't want to aggravate this > even more. Also, the cross-flow design doesn't suffer this failure mode, > assuming you draw from the lower hole. > > Mark S. > > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Bill Schertz wrote: > >> Charlie, I am using two evap cores in parallel, with system pressure >> limited to 10 psi on the expansion bottle. When the engine is running, the >> pressure measured at the inlet to the cores (exit of the pump) is a >> function of RPM and can rise to as much as 20 psi (10 psi over system >> pressure in the expansion bottle). >> >> Having the flow enter the bottom of the radiator and out the top, then >> going to the inlet of the pump sounds like a good way to avoid problems. >> >> Bill Schertz >> KIS Cruiser #4045 >> N343BS >> Phase one testing Completed >> >> *From:* Ben Haas >> *Sent:* Monday, October 22, 2012 1:06 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: flow path in conventional radiator >> >> Unless there is a serious restriction through the radiator I can't >> imagine there would be anything greater then 1 psi over system pressure >> caused by pump output. As for the reverse flow, ie, bottom to top,,, It's >> called counter flow, and yes it can work. My set up has worked flawlessly >> for 500 hours and I use the Moroso swirl / pressure tank and a air bleed >> line from the output of the radiator... About 3 minutes into this video >> shows my set up..... >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCNnEgRkdXc&context=C3e091d3ADOEgsToPDskKmHo69I6bUDuoBHd5YSUfu >> >> Ben Haas >> www.haaspowerair.com >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net >> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 12:40:11 -0500 >> From: ceengland7@gmail.com >> Subject: [FlyRotary] flow path in conventional radiator >> >> I've been doing research on radiators, & my 1st 'experiment' will be a >> conventionally configured radiator (downflow design) with inlet & >> pressure cap on top. In reading about issues with conventional radiators, a >> common complaint is pressure venting due to the water pump + system >> pressure exceeding the cap's rating. Crossflow types like the Sirocco >> are supposed to avoid this because the cap is at the mid-point in the flow >> through the rad, which drops some of the pressure seen by the cap. >> >> Here's my question: Is there any reason a conventional rad can't be fed >> from the bottom, instead of the top? This would achieve similar effect >> as the crossflow cap location (all the way to the end of the flow path) >> & any air could be vented using the existing fittings. I'm also considering >> the removal of the spring loaded seal, & moving the pressure cap >> function to a separate swirl can. By doing this, the existing over-pressure >> port could function as the air removal port in the top tank of the >> radiator. >> >> >> What am I missing? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Charlie >> > > > --f46d042f948a66337d04ccaf9a15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charlie,=A0

I can't find it at the moment, but Lynn = H. posted a rotary cooling schematic a while back. =A0You may find it helpf= ul in working out your design. =A0As for the radiator cap on the swirl tank= , that's what I've done and it works well provided it is at the hig= h point in the system. =A0I rarely have to add coolant to my system. =A0 A = picture or sketch of your design would be helpful for the rest of us in vis= ualizing your layout. =A0

Mark

On Mon, Oct 22, = 2012 at 7:57 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> w= rote:
=20 =20 =20
Ahhh, yes; an answer that gives a logical reason for top feeding the rad. Thanks Mark; I figured that I must be overlooking something.

=A0If I move the pressure cap to the swirl tank & use the higher pressure cap, I should be able to feed the rad normally.

Charlie

On 10/22/2012 06:25 PM, Mark Steitle wrote:
Charlie,=A0

So, with the bottom-up flow what what happens if you get a little low on coolant? =A0My guess is the pump will start pumping air along with the coolant, and eventually loose prime altogether and the remaining coolant will stop flowing, followed shortly by a catastrophic boil-over. =A0This may be why auto makers favor the top-down flow design. =A0The Mazda's water pum= p is already very high up on the engine. =A0I wouldn't want to aggravate this even more. =A0Also, the cross-flow design doesn'= t suffer this failure mode, assuming you draw from the lower hole.

Mark S. =A0 =A0


On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Bill Schertz <wschertz@comcast.net> wrote:
Charlie, I am using two evap cores in parallel, with system pressure limited to 10 psi on the expansion bottle. When the engine is running, the pressure measured at the inlet to the cores (exit of the pump) is a function of RPM and can rise to as much as 20 psi (10 psi over system pressure in the expansion bottle).
=A0
Having the flow enter the bottom of the radiator and out the top, then going to the inlet of the pump sounds like a good way to avoid problems.
=A0
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
Phase one testing Completed
=A0
From: Ben Haas
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 1:06 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: flow path in conventional radiator
=A0
Unless there is a serious restriction through the radiator=A0 I can't imagine there would be anything greater then 1 psi over system pressure caused by pump output.=A0 As for the reverse flow, ie, bottom to top,,, It's called counter flow, and yes i= t can work. My set up has worked flawlessly for 500 hours and I use the Moroso swirl / pressure tank and a air bleed line from the output of the radiator...=A0 About 3 minutes into this video shows my set up.....
=A0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DrCNnEgRkdXc&context=3DC3e091d3= ADOEgsToPDskKmHo69I6bUDuoBHd5YSUfu

Ben Haas
www.haaspowerair.com

=A0
To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 12:40:11 -0500
From: ceengland7@gmail.com
Subject: [FlyRotary] flow path in conventional radiator

I've= been doing research on radiators, & my 1st 'experiment' will be a conventionally configured radiator (downflow design) with inlet & pressure cap on top. In reading about issues with conventional radiators, a common complaint is pressure venting due to the water pump + syst= em pressure exceeding the cap's rating. Crossflow types like the Sirocco are supposed to avoid this because the cap is at the mid-point in the flow through the rad, which drops some of the pressure seen by the cap.

Here's my question: Is there any reason a conventional rad can't be fed from the bottom, instead of the top? This would achieve similar effect as the crossflow cap location (all the way to the end of the flow path) & any air could be vented using the existing fittings. I'm also considering the removal of the spring loaded seal, & moving the pressure cap function to a separate swirl can. By doing this, the existing over-pressure port could function as the air removal port in the top tank of the radiator.


What am I missing?

Thanks,

Charlie=



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