Received-SPF: pass
 receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.52; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fwd: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: PP engine advice?
References: <list-5695224@logan.com>
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii
In-Reply-To: <list-5695224@logan.com>
Message-Id: <2401E7BB-5852-46CE-9F06-30EB76C49182@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 11:40:50 -0400
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)

It's normal for an engine to have a higher than minimum MP at lowest idle rp=
m but PP engines are a lot worse for this U shaped MP vs Throttle position c=
urve than others.  Another aggravating factor is taking the MP from a runner=
 where velocity is high instead of a plenum where things are relatively calm=
.  So yes, uncharted waters there Mark.  =20

One thing that may help is a MAP table that has a lot more 'pages' in it for=
 RPM.  The current version has 4 rpm pages but I'm working on a new version t=
hat has 8.   If you could give me a chart showing your RPM vs MP over the ra=
nge of say 800 to 2500 rpm, that would be useful information in optimizing t=
he rpm ranges in the new version.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

> Tracy,
>=20
> See Bobby's comments regarding my MAP at idle.  My engine idles at
> about 17.5 - 18" MAP, but the MAP will drop lower when slightly off
> idle.  I attribute this to the greater overlap of the p-port design.
> Makes tuning a little more challenging though.
>=20
> A while back I had posted a question about "normal" MAP readings for
> p-port engines but never got a reply.  I guess I'm in unchartered
> territory.
>=20
> Mark
>=20
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes@qnsi.net>
> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 09:24:06 -0500
> Subject: FW: [FlyRotary] Re: PP engine advice?
> To: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
>=20
> Might tell Tracy about your 18" MP at idle and slightly lower MP off
> idle. The other builders may be fighting the same issue. It would also
> be interesting to know if they are seeing MP this high in their
> installation.
>=20
> Bobby
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
> Behalf Of Mark Steitle
> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 8:32 AM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP engine advice?
>=20
> Tracy,
>=20
> I ended up replacing the slide throttle with three individual 46mm
> throttle bodies.  I too had trouble getting stable manifold pressure
> readings from the oil injection ports, so I installed MP taps just
> downstream of the butterflies in the TB's, one for each TB.  They are
> tee'd together near the engine.  That seems to be working just fine.
> I'm using the oil injection pump instead of pre-mix, so the oil
> injection ports are being used as originally intended by Mazda.
>=20
> If they are using a slide throttle, then the primary injectors should be
> located downstream of the slide else fuel will puddle on the upstream
> side during low throttle operation causing rough running.
>=20
> Update:  The root of my tuning problems seems to have been the missing
> injector diodes.  Once I installed the diodes, the engine idle was much
> improved and tuning has been a breeze.
>=20
> Mark
>=20
>=20
> On 8/5/12, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mark. S.  (and anyone else with PP engine experience)
>>=20
>> How did you end up getting a usable MP signal for the EC2/3?    I have
>> another couple of builders who took Paul L's advice and used PP
> engines with
>> slide throttle mounted right to the ports.   They are not having any
> luck
>> getting a stable MP using the oil injection ports on the rotor
> housing.
>>=20
>> Did you ever come up with a good solution?
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Tracy Crook
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPad
>>=20
>> On Aug 5, 2012, at 9:41 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Charlie,
>>>=20
>>> My system uses those EFI filters also.  They are Fram p/n G3727.
>>> They take a Saginaw fitting on the filter side (see pic).  I don't
>>> recall where I purchased my AN-Saginaw fittings.
>>>=20
>>> Mark S.
>>>=20
>>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Charlie England
>>> <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> I'm not flying yet, but I more or less copied Ed Anderson's filter
>>> configuration: each high pressure pump feeds a separate GM inline
>>> filter, with the outputs from the filters T'd back together to feed
> the regulator.
>>> There are AN adapters that screw into the filter. Attached is the
>>> only pic I could find. The pumps are off the bottom of the pic.
>>>=20
>>> Ed, do you have the NAPA # handy?
>>>=20
>>> Charlie
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 08/05/2012 03:35 PM, David Leonard wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> So my next question is how small of filtration do we need?  ie, what
>=20
>>>> is the size of a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle
> easily?
>>>>=20
>>>> I was using the Earls sintered bronze element at 35microns, but I
>>>> also could use the SS screen version at 85 mic.  The Peterson in
>>>> line 600 series is MUCH more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100
>>>> micron SS screens.
>>>>=20
>>>> http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fue
>>>> l-Filters/1528539/10002/-1
>>>>=20
>>>>  Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to
>>>> retrofit, and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls.
>>>> Lots of other brands I have  not explored yet.
>>>>=20
>>>> I like the sintered bronze for strength and durability.  Other
> opinions?
>>>>=20
>>>> Dave Leonard
>>>>=20
>>>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq cm
>>>> worth of area.  Will look into the Peterson.  Thanks Tracy.
>>>>=20
>>>> Dave Leonard
>>>>=20
>>>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps.  OK,
> but
>>>> very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks.   I used a gascolator
> for
>>>> low side filter on my -4.  Worked OK and when it clogged,  switching
>=20
>>>> on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to collapse
> and let
>>>> fuel bypass it.   which is better than no fuel at
>>>> all but not an ideal solution.
>>>>=20
>>>> On the -8 i used a cleanable  Peterson filter with TONS of filter
> area,
>>>> works great.   That was a replacement for the Summit Racing fuel
> filter
>>>> with a filter element disk the size of a nickel.  It clogged up in
>>>> about about 5 hours of flight.
>>>>=20
>>>> Tracy
>>>>=20
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>=20
>>>> On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Yes, it was the high side filter.  I don't have any low side
> filters.
>>>>> Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning fool-proof
>>>>> low side filters that Al mentions.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --
>>>>> David Leonard
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
>>>>> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
>>>>> http://RotaryRoster.net
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side  filter.    So for
> the
>>>>> record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side filter that
>=20
>>>>> clogged?  ( Both are needed ) =46rom the symptoms I'm guessing high
>>>>> side but not sure.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> BTW,  nice job!
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by
>>>>>> using same fuel filter method that all cars use. No matter how
>>>>>> much foreign material you throw at it, it can't clog. It minimizes
>=20
>>>>>> pressure drop, so lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter.
> Self priming pumps.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -Al Wick
>>>>>> Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.
>>>>>> Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from
>>>>>> Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop
>>>>>> construct, Risk assessment
>>>>>> info:
>>>>>> http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Jeff Whaley
>>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Dave, having gone through recently what you just experienced I
>>>>>> would like to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with such
>>>>>> little damage.  Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ...
>>>>>> obviously you made the right choices.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> (Rebuilding my Ride)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> From:    David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject:    Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced
> Landing
>>>>>> Date:    Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700
>>>>>> To:    Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>   =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Sigh..
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We were at about
>=20
>>>>>> 1500 agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close
>>>>>> formation of
>>>>>> 40 aircraft at the time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS
>>>>>> somewhere in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return flow creep
>>>>>> downward but didn't think it was a big problem.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On the incident flight, a one hour formation flight from SQI for a
>=20
>>>>>> mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero. I
>>>>>> actually though it was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability
>=20
>>>>>> to give it a lot of attention because we were in a loose
>>>>>> formation. Soon after we pulled it together for a tight formation
>>>>>> power switched off. I tried to find a road, but quickly ran out of
>=20
>>>>>> options and put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitting
>>>>>> the flaps it brought me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I
>>>>>> would have gone into the full grown corn. As mentioned, wheel
>>>>>> pants broke in half but no other damage besides pulling bean
>>>>>> leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farmers were very nice,
>>>>>> and the stories are true... they have attractive daughters. They
> were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying the excitement.
>>>>>> Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. Within a
>>>>>> couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their driveways
>=20
>>>>>> as they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up on
>>>>>> my offer for a ride).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking space and a
>>>>>> very warm reception from the formation group and friends. Great
>>>>>> support from everyone all around, though I am trying to avoid the
>>>>>> obvious new call signs they are trying to give me.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> David Leonard
>>>>>> This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only
>>>>>> for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential
> information.
>>>>>> Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have
>>>>>> received this message in error, please notify us immediately so
>>>>>> that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the
>>>>>> original message. Thank you.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> --
>>>> David Leonard
>>>>=20
>>>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
>>>> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
>>>> http://RotaryRoster.net
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> --
>>>> David Leonard
>>>>=20
>>>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
>>>> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
>>>> http://RotaryRoster.net
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>> Archive and UnSub:
>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> <Saginaw_2_AN.jpg>
>>> --
>>> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>> Archive and UnSub:
>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>>=20
>=20
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>=20
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List=
.html