X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ob0-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTPS id 5698046 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 20:04:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.180; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by obbuo19 with SMTP id uo19so220666obb.25 for ; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 17:04:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=EUOa6+ux2oAvVievvLwEZFeLaVNaYn7DxFpG4kXDcnk=; b=A3BuM/rIWICM10Cql+rze5qhf9wQ4DYXteg+/I056SJYhuHjkUeysioGHWHYlHtoa3 r10l8bYX0jcqcqAIl5wn9ELkit6Ihe21u/vpsp4t8VK4Y1Ube3xIVFHpPXbfRV/C4Ir6 sBVv5RJ6lC0HFOxr8RXB7cCOJsV0rYgFgwGzkyOVV4wXb75k84nu5NiTIRIGO5zeFbNj XzlOaklWgBwv+sZtt/5dyNkByDKyDOgUjGROtSCJmCda7Avhz1Hrx0RXF+8fTANBWSTq jcKVeK2QD7QVhxVIAsGluIFcDim6ygOpm5mQL7bTWtUmclon5pNVHbgNQNXR3wrF4oYx vkog== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.72.9 with SMTP id z9mr27734860obu.5.1344384245715; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 17:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.96.167 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Aug 2012 17:04:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 19:04:05 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] CAUTION Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04462fbc68510004c6b5d906 --f46d04462fbc68510004c6b5d906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Good "Heads Up" info David...........I do not believe the "Saginaw" adapters were originally not intended for use in a fuel system and come equipped with "O" rings not fuel compatible.......... Kelly Troyer On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 11:04 PM, wrote: > THE O-RINGS ON MY FILTER ADAPTERS WERE NOT ETHANOL & ADDITIVES COMPLIANT, > when soaked in mo-gas they expanded over twice there size, had to change > them to different product ( sorry can't remember what? Nitrile ? ). David > R. Cook RV6A Rotary > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Mark Steitle" > *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" > *Sent: *Sunday, August 5, 2012 9:41:46 PM > *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing > > Charlie, > > My system uses those EFI filters also. They are Fram p/n G3727. They > take a Saginaw fitting on the filter side (see pic). I don't recall where > I purchased my AN-Saginaw fittings. > > Mark S. > > On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Charlie England wrote: > >> I'm not flying yet, but I more or less copied Ed Anderson's filter >> configuration: each high pressure pump feeds a separate GM inline filter, >> with the outputs from the filters T'd back together to feed the regulator. >> There are AN adapters that screw into the filter. Attached is the only pic >> I could find. The pumps are off the bottom of the pic. >> >> Ed, do you have the NAPA # handy? >> >> Charlie >> >> >> On 08/05/2012 03:35 PM, David Leonard wrote: >> >> So my next question is how small of filtration do we need? ie, what is >> the size of a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle easily? >> >> I was using the Earls sintered bronze element at 35microns, but I also >> could use the SS screen version at 85 mic. The Peterson in line 600 series >> is MUCH more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS screens. >> >> >> http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filters/1528539/10002/-1 >> >> Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to >> retrofit, and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls. Lots of >> other brands I have not explored yet. >> >> I like the sintered bronze for strength and durability. Other opinions? >> >> Dave Leonard >> >> On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard wrote: >> >>> Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq cm >>> worth of area. Will look into the Peterson. Thanks Tracy. >>> >>> Dave Leonard >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy wrote: >>> >>>> Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. OK, >>>> but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. I used a gascolator for >>>> low side filter on my -4. Worked OK and when it clogged, switching on the >>>> backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to collapse and let fuel >>>> bypass it. which is better than no fuel at all but not an ideal solution. >>>> >>>> On the -8 i used a cleanable Peterson filter with TONS of filter area, >>>> works great. That was a replacement for the Summit Racing fuel filter >>>> with a filter element disk the size of a nickel. It clogged up in about >>>> about 5 hours of flight. >>>> >>>> Tracy >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes, it was the high side filter. I don't have any low side >>>> filters. Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning fool-proof >>>> low side filters that Al mentions. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> David Leonard >>>> >>>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >>>> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >>>> http://RotaryRoster.net >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy wrote: >>>> >>>>> I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side filter. So for >>>>> the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side filter that >>>>> clogged? ( Both are needed ) From the symptoms I'm guessing high side but >>>>> not sure. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, nice job! >>>>> >>>>> Tracy >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by >>>>> using same fuel filter method that all cars use. No matter how much foreign >>>>> material you throw at it, it can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, so >>>>> lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps. >>>>> >>>>> -Al Wick >>>>> Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R. >>>>> Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, >>>>> Oregon >>>>> Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment >>>>> info: >>>>> http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> *From:* Jeff Whaley >>>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM >>>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing >>>>> >>>>> Dave, having gone through recently what you just experienced I would >>>>> like to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with such little damage. >>>>> Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the >>>>> right choices. >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> (Rebuilding my Ride) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: David Leonard Subject: Re: >>>>> [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing Date: Fri, 3 >>>>> Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700 To: Rotary motors in aircraft < >>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> [image: Message Header] >>>>> >>>>> [image: Undecoded Message] >>>>> Sigh.. >>>>> >>>>> Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We were at about >>>>> 1500 agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close formation >>>>> of 40 aircraft at the time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS somewhere in >>>>> Iowa as I did notice my fuel return flow creep downward but didn't think it >>>>> was a big problem. >>>>> >>>>> On the incident flight, a one hour formation flight from SQI for a >>>>> mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero. I actually >>>>> though it was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to give it a lot >>>>> of attention because we were in a loose formation. Soon after we pulled it >>>>> together for a tight formation power switched off. I tried to find a road, >>>>> but quickly ran out of options and put it down in a bean field. With the >>>>> beans hitting the flaps it brought me to a stop in about 200ft, just before >>>>> I would have gone into the full grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke >>>>> in half but no other damage besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook >>>>> and cranny. The farmers were very nice, and the stories are true... they >>>>> have attractive daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday >>>>> best enjoying the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace >>>>> the fuses. Within a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of >>>>> their driveways as they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me >>>>> up on my offer for a ride). >>>>> >>>>> Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking space and a very >>>>> warm reception from the formation group and friends. Great support from >>>>> everyone all around, though I am trying to avoid the obvious new call signs >>>>> they are trying to give me. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> David Leonard >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> David Leonard >>> >>> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >>> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >>> http://RotaryRoster.net >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> David Leonard >> >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >> http://RotaryRoster.net >> >> > --f46d04462fbc68510004c6b5d906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good "Heads Up" info David...........I do not believe the "S= aginaw" adapters were originally not intended for use in
a fuel sy= stem and come equipped with "O" rings not fuel compatible........= ..

Kelly Troyer =A0

On M= on, Aug 6, 2012 at 11:04 PM, <hoursaway1@comcast.net> = wrote:
THE O-RINGS ON MY FILTER ADAPTERS WERE NOT ETHANOL & ADDITIVES COMP= LIANT, when soaked in mo-gas they expanded over twice there size, had to ch= ange them to different product ( sorry can't remember what? Nitrile ? )= .=A0=A0 David R. Cook=A0=A0 RV6A Rotary

From: "Mark Steitle" <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: "Rotar= y motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2012 9:41:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing

Charlie,=A0=20

My system uses those EFI filters also. =A0They are Fram p/n G3727. =A0= They take a Saginaw fitting on the filter side (see pic). =A0I don't re= call where I purchased my AN-Saginaw fittings.

Mark S. =A0=A0

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Charlie England = <ceengland@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I'm not flying yet, but I more or less copied Ed Anderson's fi= lter configuration: each high pressure pump feeds a separate GM inline filt= er, with the outputs from the filters T'd back together to feed the reg= ulator. There are AN adapters that screw into the filter. Attached is the o= nly pic I could find. The pumps are off the bottom of the pic.

Ed, do you have the NAPA # handy?

Charlie


On 08/05/20= 12 03:35 PM, David Leonard wrote:=20
So my next question is how small of filtration do we need?=A0 i= e, what is the size of a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle= easily?

I was using the Earls sintered bronze element at 35microns,= but I also could use the SS screen version at 85 mic.=A0 The Peterson in l= ine 600 series is MUCH more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron S= S screens.

http://www.jegs.com/p= /Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filters/1528539/10002/-1

=A0 Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to retr= ofit, and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls.=A0 Lots of oth= er brands I have=A0 not explored yet.

I like the sintered bronze for= strength and durability.=A0 Other opinions?

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard <= span dir=3D"ltr"><wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq cm wort= h of area.=A0 Will look into the Peterson.=A0 Thanks Tracy.

Dave Leo= nard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy <rwstra= cy@gmail.com> wrote:
Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. =A0O= K, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. =A0 I used a gascolator= for low side filter on my -4. =A0Worked OK and when it clogged, =A0switchi= ng on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to collapse and= let fuel bypass it. =A0 which is better than no fuel at all but not an ide= al solution.

On the -8 i used a cleanable =A0Peterson filter with TONS of filter ar= ea, works great. =A0 That was a replacement for the Summit Racing fuel filt= er with a filter element disk the size of a nickel. =A0It clogged up in abo= ut about 5 hours of flight.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, it was the high side filter.=A0 I don't have any low side fil= ters.=A0 Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning fool-proof l= ow side filters that Al mentions.

--
David Leonard

Turbo = Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rot= aryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy <rwstra= cy@gmail.com> wrote:
I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side =A0filter. =A0 =A0So = for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side filter that= clogged? =A0( Both are needed ) From the symptoms I'm guessing high si= de but not sure.

BTW, =A0nice job!

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com> wrote:
As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by using= same fuel filter method that all cars use. No matter how much foreign mate= rial you=A0throw at it, it can't clog. It=A0minimizes pressure drop, so= lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps.
=A0
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.
Expert at failure = prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel = design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info:
http://www.ez.= org/pages/alwick/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 = PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Force= d Landing

Dave, having gone through recently what you just experienced I would lik= e to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with such little damage.=A0 An= yway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the r= ight choices.

Jeff

(Rebuilding my Ride)

=A0

From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
 3D"Message

3D"Undecoded
Sigh..

Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We were= at about 1500 agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close f= ormation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS somew= here in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return flow creep downward but didn= 9;t think it was a big problem.

On the incident flight, a one hour formation flight from SQI for a mass= arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero. I actually thou= gh it was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to give it a lot = of attention because we were in a loose formation. Soon after we pulled it = together for a tight formation power switched off. I tried to find a road, = but quickly ran out of options and put it down in a bean field. With the be= ans hitting the flaps it brought me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I= would have gone into the full grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke = in half but no other damage besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook a= nd cranny. The farmers were very nice, and the stories are true... they hav= e attractive daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best e= njoying the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fus= es. Within a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their drive= ways as they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up on my of= fer for a ride).

Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking space and a very w= arm reception from the formation group and friends. Great support from ever= yone all around, though I am trying to avoid the obvious new call signs the= y are trying to give me.

--
David Leonard







--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary = RV-6 N4VY
ht= tp://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net



--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
= http://RotaryRoster.= net





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