X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail02.dca.untd.com ([64.136.47.36] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with SMTP id 5697024 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 11:24:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.47.36; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1344353046; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=blFly3jPQc1MsPJExL4pnhRyyhAwj8Q78ZLdWG/lcoyvSKUhCacJdM0ZGxukObiTk GUzmkzfPiB1Bo1pzT1PPMb/7Y4nqT9yvnl4pAnDsP89aRWs+mvYFGIzUkcY63U/7P3 EmNjYUVTfFwg/PEMrIdTQzoRxcnlbFbCrZcnwNfg= Received: from Penny (50-39-183-151.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.183.151]) by smtpout02.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABJCCN2JA656C3A for (sender ); Tue, 7 Aug 2012 08:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5CF89D95013D49238D41B72637E77B61@Penny> From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 08:23:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0667_01CD7475.F9F0DCC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-UNTD-BodySize: 40715 X-ContentStamp: 95:47:2686056092 X-MAIL-INFO: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 30384510857d9dbda4fd413819bd79b500050d34099d0599800dc1050950a184a500395560e48164a5202044a095159100cde1c0ed208df131d5bde5b131fd6524f08dd405756561fda404b1541d5d00e5d065d155f435dd2089397d553ded3815012d75dd3901397d2539f575853905857434d54db09dd50d X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkJgVDAKFMweOmMOdApKWZCNy8UfGrIi5GA== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.171.42.32|smtpout02.dca.untd.com|smtpout02.dca.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0667_01CD7475.F9F0DCC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable wrote: Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 = sq cm worth of area. Will look into the Peterson. Thanks Tracy. Dave Leonard On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy = wrote: Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank = pumps. OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. I used a = gascolator for low side filter on my -4. Worked OK and when it clogged, = switching on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to = collapse and let fuel bypass it. which is better than no fuel at all = but not an ideal solution. On the -8 i used a cleanable Peterson filter with TONS of = filter area, works great. That was a replacement for the Summit Racing = fuel filter with a filter element disk the size of a nickel. It clogged = up in about about 5 hours of flight. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard = wrote: Yes, it was the high side filter. I don't have any low = side filters. Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning = fool-proof low side filters that Al mentions. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy = wrote: I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side = filter. So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure = side filter that clogged? ( Both are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm = guessing high side but not sure. BTW, nice job! Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" = wrote: As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety = improvement by using same fuel filter method that all cars use. No = matter how much foreign material you throw at it, it can't clog. It = minimizes pressure drop, so lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning = filter. Self priming pumps.=20 -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.=20 Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ = hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, = Risk assessment info: http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Whaley=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing Dave, having gone through recently what you just = experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with = such little damage. Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... = obviously you made the right choices. Jeff (Rebuilding my Ride) From: David Leonard = =20 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: = [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing=20 Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft = =20 =20 =20 =20 Sigh.. Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to = fess up. We were at about 1500 agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. = I was in a close formation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I think I got = some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return flow = creep downward but didn't think it was a big problem.=20 On the incident flight, a one hour formation = flight from SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted = down to zero. I actually though it was a sensor problem. I didn't have = the ability to give it a lot of attention because we were in a loose = formation. Soon after we pulled it together for a tight formation power = switched off. I tried to find a road, but quickly ran out of options and = put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitting the flaps it brought = me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I would have gone into the full = grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half but no other damage = besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farmers = were very nice, and the stories are true... they have attractive = daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying = the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. = Within a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their = driveways as they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up = on my offer for a ride). Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved = parking space and a very warm reception from the formation group and = friends. Great support from everyone all around, though I am trying to = avoid the obvious new call signs they are trying to give me. --=20 David Leonard =20 This message, and the documents attached hereto, = is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly = prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us = immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then = delete the original message. Thank you.=20 --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------=_NextPart_000_0667_01CD7475.F9F0DCC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<not taken into account is that the fuel flow of an aircraft is=20 significantly greater than that of a car
 
Not true in this modern = age. 30 years=20 ago would have been true.
 
They do take high = flow into=20 consideration. They design the systems to handle the extremes. When we = do=20 qualification testing we measure how close we are to failure threshold. = "Holy=20 crap, if this guy has partially clogged filter similar to ones we find = on=20 Kentucky cars 15 years old. AND he is running at full throttle. AND he = has=20 replaced injectors with high flow ones..........no, he's still within = the safety=20 margin."
 
Have to admit, I don't know = the details=20 of Mazda fuel flow thresholds. But I do know Japanese companies are = expert=20 at design optimization. They do measure how well sys will perform in = unusual=20 applications. We have what's called a "noise array" and test how = well sys=20 handles unusual situations outside of our control. So high flow = injectors would=20 be in the noise array. As would fuel from "Bob's rusty tank". =
 
Would flow for 600 hp = engine be=20 considered? No, not that extreme.
 
<filter/pump were removed inspected and cleaned, I personally = would feel=20 much better about that installation.
 
Yes, I think a lot of = people are not=20 used to the concept of a design so robust that failures can't occur. In = the case=20 of OEM fuel filtering, it's totally unnecessary to remove and inspect. = If=20 curious, use one of those scopes to peer into tank. In this case, remove = and=20 inspect would increase risk. I love the irony.
 
-al
 
-al
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ARGOLDMAN@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 = 7:39=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel = Filters.=20 Was: Rotary Forced Landing

Al,
 
Of course, what is not taken into account by the auto guys is = that the=20 fuel flow of an aircraft is significantly greater than that of a car = and that=20 old planes are still flying and don't have the opportunity to "pull = over to=20 the side if the filter gets plugged totally or partially.
 
Now if, as part of a conditional inspection, the filter/pump were = removed=20 inspected and cleaned, I personally would feel much better about that=20 installation.
 
Rich
 
In a message dated 8/6/2012 10:58:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 alwick@juno.com writes:
Dave says:
<How does a filter "Self clean"?
 
I mentioned this a couple years ago. One of the guys called = Bull Sh__.=20 Well, not really, but what he did was most impressive. He went to = local=20 wrecking yard, bought two used coarse filters. They reside in the = fuel tank.=20 I think he spent like $5 or so.
Then he puts it in bucket, no I think he has old aquarium. = Attached a=20 pump to it. Then got some dirt and debris from yard and poured it = on. As I=20 recall he could not get it to clog. But the self cleaning was = obvious when=20 he added a little wave action and vibration to it.
If you take this a little further, you can actually measure = pump flow=20 rate by timing how long it takes to fill jug. You can then look at = jug=20 contents so see how fine it screens. You can add a simple altimeter = and=20 measure pressure drop on pump inlet. Less pressure drop means that = vapor=20 lock risk is reduced. Tons of stuff you can measure that no one = knows.=20
I'd think you'd find it takes around 1 tsp to clog the = traditional=20 aircraft filter...so planes crash. Yet it takes cups of dirt to clog = the=20 filter used by every single car manufacturer. Gigantic safety = improvement.=20
 
<How DO the car manufacturers overcome eventual filter=20 clogging/saturation? Just by making it so dang <large it never = reaches=20 that point?
 
I think they discovered that the larger the surface area, the = less=20 likely to clog. That's why they all have around 6 to 10 times more = surface=20 exposed to wave action than the filters of yesteryear.
 
 
-al wick
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Dave
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, August 06, = 2012 6:57=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Fuel=20 Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing

For the ignorati among us, I must=20 ask.

How does a filter "Self clean"? How DO the car = manufacturers=20 overcome eventual filter clogging/saturation? Just by making it so = dang=20 large it never reaches that point?

Dave

On 8/6/2012 = 8:48 AM,=20 Al Wick wrote:
<how small of filtration do we need?
<size of a particle that will fit through the injector = nozzle=20 easily?
 
Excellent questions. You have one resource that stands WAY = above=20 others. What do the OEM vehicles use? They know precisely what = the=20 optimum surface area is, optimum filtration size. Too fine, it = clogs=20 needlessly. Too coarse, you increase risk of injector clog. Too = little=20 surface area, it won't last. They even take into consideration = unusual=20 needs, like people that operate at super high flow rates.
 
A few decades ago, cars would periodically suffer clogged = filters.=20 Never happens any more because they have new tools to optimize = designs.=20 For example, their course filter screen has around 10 times more = surface=20 area than any airplane filter. Self cleaning,  screen size=20 optimized. So debris can't affect your car. It's just brilliant. =
 
I really worry about builders copying marginal fuel = designs.=20 Unaware of how close they are to the failure threshold. You can = fly for=20 years with marginal design, tell everyone "works great for me". = Unaware=20 you are promoting failure.
 
-al wick
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 David Leonard
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Sunday, August = 05, 2012=20 1:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Fuel=20 Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing

So my next question is how small of filtration = do we=20 need?  ie, what is the size of a particle that will fit = through=20 the injector nozzle easily?

I was using the Earls = sintered=20 bronze element at 35microns, but I also could use the SS = screen=20 version at 85 mic.  The Peterson in line 600 series is = MUCH more=20 expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS = screens.

http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Pet= erson-600-Series-Fuel-Filters/1528539/10002/-1

 =20 Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to = retrofit, and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the = earls. =20 Lots of other brands I have  not explored yet.

I = like the=20 sintered bronze for strength and durability.  Other=20 opinions?

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, = David Leonard=20 <wdleonard@gmail.com> = wrote:
Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high = pressure with=20 maybe 10 sq cm worth of area.  Will look into the=20 Peterson.  Thanks Tracy.

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, = Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> = wrote:
Al probably means the filter that's on factory = in-tank pumps.=20  OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. =  =20 I used a gascolator for low side filter on my -4. =  Worked OK=20 and when it clogged,  switching on the backup pump = with main=20 pump caused the screen disk to collapse and let fuel = bypass it.=20   which is better than no fuel at all but not an = ideal=20 solution.

On the -8 i used a cleanable  Peterson filter = with TONS=20 of filter area, works great.   That was a replacement = for the=20 Summit Racing fuel filter with a filter element disk the = size of a=20 nickel.  It clogged up in about about 5 hours of=20 flight.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

Yes, it was the high side filter.  I don't = have any=20 low side filters.  Would be interested in a source = for the=20 self-cleaning fool-proof low side filters that Al=20 mentions.

--
David Leonard

Turbo = Rotary RV-6=20 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, = Tracy=20 <rwstracy@gmail.com>=20 wrote:
I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side=20  filter.    So for the record, was it = the inlet=20 side or the high pressure side filter that clogged? =  (=20 Both are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm guessing = high side=20 but not sure.

BTW,  nice job!

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com>=20 wrote:

As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous = safety=20 improvement by using same fuel filter method that = all cars=20 use. No matter how much foreign material = you throw at=20 it, it can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, = so lower=20 risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self = priming=20 pumps.
 
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R. =
Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U = 240+ hours=20 from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru = install,=20 Prop construct, Risk assessment info:
http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm
----- Original = Message -----=20
From:=20 Jeff Whaley
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: = Saturday,=20 August 04, 2012 1:38 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Rotary Forced Landing

Dave, having gone through recently what you = just=20 experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on = getting down=20 safely and with such little damage.  Anyway = at 1500=20 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you = made the=20 right choices.

Jeff

(Rebuilding my Ride)

 

From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] = Rotary=20 Forced Landing
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 = -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

=20
Sigh..

Yup, that was me. I have = been=20 meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500 = agl when=20 the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a = close=20 formation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I = think I=20 got some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I = did notice=20 my fuel return flow creep downward but = didn't think=20 it was a big problem.

On the = incident=20 flight, a one hour formation flight from SQI = for a=20 mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow = drifted=20 down to zero. I actually though it was a = sensor=20 problem. I didn't have the ability to give = it a lot=20 of attention because we were in a loose = formation.=20 Soon after we pulled it together for a tight = formation power switched off. I tried to = find a=20 road, but quickly ran out of options and put = it down=20 in a bean field. With the beans hitting the = flaps it=20 brought me to a stop in about 200ft, just = before I=20 would have gone into the full grown corn. As = mentioned, wheel pants broke in half but no = other=20 damage besides pulling bean leaves out of = every nook=20 and cranny. The farmers were very nice, and = the=20 stories are true... they have attractive = daughters.=20 They were out there barefoot in their Sunday = best=20 enjoying the excitement. Helped me clean the = fuel=20 filter and replace the fuses. Within a = couple of=20 hours I was able to take off from one of = their=20 driveways as they all waived good bye (but=20 strangely, no one took me up on my offer for = a=20 ride).

Landed at OSH just before dark = to a=20 reserved parking space and a very warm = reception=20 from the formation group and friends. Great = support=20 from everyone all around, though I am trying = to=20 avoid the obvious new call signs they are = trying to=20 give me.

--
David=20 Leonard
This = message,=20 and the documents attached hereto, is intended = only for=20 the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential=20 information. Any unauthorized disclosure is = strictly=20 prohibited. If you have received this message in = error,=20 please notify us immediately so that we may = correct our=20 internal records. Please then delete the original = message.=20 Thank you.=20 =

=
<= BR>
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary = RV-6=20 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 = N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

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