X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.27.243] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTP id 5696224 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 00:15:57 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.27.243; envelope-from=hoursaway1@comcast.net Received: from omta17.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.73]) by qmta13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id jTLd1j00A1afHeLADgFMnt; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 04:15:21 +0000 Received: from sz0081.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.138]) by omta17.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id jgFM1j0062yr1eL8dgFMVy; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 04:15:21 +0000 Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 04:15:21 +0000 (UTC) From: hoursaway1@comcast.net To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <612793031.218979.1344312921104.JavaMail.root@sz0081a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_218978_50102061.1344312921071" X-Originating-IP: [::ffff:71.206.108.115] X-Mailer: Zimbra 6.0.13_GA_2944 (ZimbraWebClient - IE8 (Win)/6.0.13_GA_2944) ------=_Part_218978_50102061.1344312921071 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have you seen the fuel pump modules in late module autos with the 6" white = sock on the intake nozzle of the pump, that's the=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 self cl= eaning,=C2=A0=C2=A0 no cartridge around the sock just your entire fuel tank= swishing fuel around &=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 washing the filter , heavy debris= on & off.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 David R. Cook=C2= =A0=C2=A0 RV6A Rotary=20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" =20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 9:57:19 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing=20 For the ignorati among us, I must ask.=20 How does a filter "Self clean"? How DO the car manufacturers overcome event= ual filter clogging/saturation? Just by making it so dang large it never re= aches that point?=20 Dave=20 On 8/6/2012 8:48 AM, Al Wick wrote:=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Leonard=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 1:35 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing=20 So my next question is how small of filtration do we need?=C2=A0 ie, what i= s the size of a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle easily?= =20 I was using the Earls sintered bronze element at 35microns, but I also coul= d use the SS screen version at 85 mic.=C2=A0 The Peterson in line 600 serie= s is MUCH more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS screens.=20 http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filte= rs/1528539/10002/-1=20 =C2=A0 Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to retro= fit, and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls.=C2=A0 Lots of o= ther brands I have=C2=A0 not explored yet.=20 I like the sintered bronze for strength and durability.=C2=A0 Other opinion= s?=20 Dave Leonard=20 On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard < wdleonard@gmail.com > wrot= e:=20
Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq cm worth of = area.=C2=A0 Will look into the Peterson.=C2=A0 Thanks Tracy.=20 Dave Leonard=20 On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy < rwstracy@gmail.com > wrote:=20
Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. =C2=A0OK, but= very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. =C2=A0 I used a gascolator fo= r low side filter on my -4. =C2=A0Worked OK and when it clogged, =C2=A0swit= ching on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to collapse = and let fuel bypass it. =C2=A0 which is better than no fuel at all but not = an ideal solution.=20 On the -8 i used a cleanable =C2=A0Peterson filter with TONS of filter area= , works great. =C2=A0 That was a replacement for the Summit Racing fuel fil= ter with a filter element disk the size of a nickel. =C2=A0It clogged up in= about about 5 hours of flight.=20 Tracy=20 Sent from my iPad=20 On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard < wdleonard@gmail.com > wrote:= =20
Yes, it was the high side filter.=C2=A0 I don't have any low side filters.= =C2=A0 Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning fool-proof low= side filters that Al mentions.=20 --=20 David Leonard=20 Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=20 http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=20 http://RotaryRoster.net=20 On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy < rwstracy@gmail.com > wrote:=20
I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side =C2=A0filter. =C2=A0 =C2= =A0So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side filte= r that clogged? =C2=A0( Both are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm guessing h= igh side but not sure.=20 BTW, =C2=A0nice job!=20 Tracy=20 Sent from my iPad=20 On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" < alwick@juno.com > wrote:=20
As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by using same= fuel filter method that all cars use. No matter how much foreign material = you=C2=A0throw at it, it can't clog. It=C2=A0minimizes pressure drop, so lo= wer risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps.=20 =C2=A0=20 -Al Wick=20 Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.=20 Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oreg= on=20 Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info:= =20 http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm=20
----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Whaley=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing=20 Dave, having gone through recently what you just experienced I would like t= o say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with such little damage.=C2=A0 An= yway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the right= choices.=20 Jeff=20 (Rebuilding my Ride)=20 =C2=A0 From: =09David Leonard < wdleonard@gmail.com >=20 Subject: =09Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing=20 Date: =09Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700=20 To: =09Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net > =09Message= Header Undecoded Message Sigh..=20 Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl= when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close formation of 40 air= craft at the time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I = did notice my fuel return flow creep downward but didn't think it was a big= problem.=20 On the incident flight, a one hour formation flight from SQI for a mass arr= ival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero. I actually though i= t was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to give it a lot of atten= tion because we were in a loose formation. Soon after we pulled it together= for a tight formation power switched off. I tried to find a road, but quic= kly ran out of options and put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitt= ing the flaps it brought me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I would h= ave gone into the full grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half = but no other damage besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook and crann= y. The farmers were very nice, and the stories are true... they have attrac= tive daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying = the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. With= in a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their driveways as = they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up on my offer for = a ride).=20 Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking space and a very warm = reception from the formation group and friends. Great support from everyone= all around, though I am trying to avoid the obvious new call signs they ar= e trying to give me.=20 --=20 David Leonard=20 This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.=20
--=20 David Leonard=20 Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=20 http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=20 http://RotaryRoster.net=20
--=20 David Leonard=20 Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=20 http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=20 http://RotaryRoster.net=20
------=_Part_218978_50102061.1344312921071 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div style=3D'font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>Have you = seen the fuel pump modules in late module autos with the 6" white sock on t= he intake nozzle of the pump, that's the    self cleaning,&n= bsp;  no cartridge around the sock just your entire fuel tank swishing= fuel around &    washing the filter , heavy debris on &= amp; off.         David R. Cook&nbs= p;  RV6A Rotary


From: "Dave" <david.staten@gmail.com>
To: "Rotary mo= tors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monda= y, August 6, 2012 9:57:19 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filter= s. Was: Rotary Forced Landing

For the ignorati among us, I must ask.

= How does a filter "Self clean"? How DO the car manufacturers overcome event= ual filter clogging/saturation? Just by making it so dang large it never re= aches that point?

Dave

On 8/6/2012 8:48 AM, Al Wick wrote:
<how small of filtration do we need?
<size of a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle easil= y?
 
Excellent questions. You have one resource that stands WAY above other= s. What do the OEM vehicles use? They know precisely what the optimum surfa= ce area is, optimum filtration size. Too fine, it clogs needlessly. Too coa= rse, you increase risk of injector clog. Too little surface area, it won't = last. They even take into consideration unusual needs, like people that ope= rate at super high flow rates.
 
A few decades ago, cars would periodically suffer clogged filters. Nev= er happens any more because they have new tools to optimize designs. For ex= ample, their course filter screen has around 10 times more surface area tha= n any airplane filter. Self cleaning,  screen size optimized. So debri= s can't affect your car. It's just brilliant.
 
I really worry about builders copying marginal fuel designs. Unaware o= f how close they are to the failure threshold. You can fly for years with m= arginal design, tell everyone "works great for me". Unaware you are promoti= ng failure.
 
-al wick
 
----- Original Message -----
= From: David Leonard
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 1:35 P= M
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel Filters. W= as: Rotary Forced Landing

So my next question is how small of filtration do we need?&n= bsp; ie, what is the size of a particle that will fit through the injector = nozzle easily?

I was using the Earls sintered bronze element at 35mi= crons, but I also could use the SS screen version at 85 mic.  The Pete= rson in line 600 series is MUCH more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100= micron SS screens.

= http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filte= rs/1528539/10002/-1

  Those do have more surface area but w= ill be a hassle for me to retrofit, and not sure they are worth 4x the pric= e of the earls.  Lots of other brands I have  not explored yet.
I like the sintered bronze for strength and durability.  Other o= pinions?

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard <wdl= eonard@gmail.com> wrote:
Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10= sq cm worth of area.  Will look into the Peterson.  Thanks Tracy= .

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@g= mail.com> wrote:
Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps.  OK= , but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks.   I used a gascolat= or for low side filter on my -4.  Worked OK and when it clogged,  = ;switching on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to coll= apse and let fuel bypass it.   which is better than no fuel at all but= not an ideal solution.

On the -8 i used a cleanable  Peterson filter with TONS of filter= area, works great.   That was a replacement for the Summit Racing fue= l filter with a filter element disk the size of a nickel.  It clogged = up in about about 5 hours of flight.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
<= BR>
Yes, it was the high side filter.  I don't have any low side filt= ers.  Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning fool-proof= low side filters that Al mentions.

--
David Leonard

Turb= o Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmai= l.com> wrote:
I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side  filter.   =  So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side fi= lter that clogged?  ( Both are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm gues= sing high side but not sure.

BTW,  nice job!

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com> wrote:

As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by using= same fuel filter method that all cars use. No matter how much foreign mate= rial you throw at it, it can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, = so lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps.
 
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.
Expert at failure = prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel = design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info:
http://www.ez.o= rg/pages/alwick/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38= PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forc= ed Landing

Dave, having gone through recently what you just experienced I would lik= e to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with such little damage. = Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the ri= ght choices.

Jeff

(Rebuilding my Ride)

 

=
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
3D"Message

Sigh..

Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We were= at about 1500 agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close f= ormation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS somew= here in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return flow creep downward but didn't = think it was a big problem.

On the incident flight, a one hour form= ation flight from SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drift= ed down to zero. I actually though it was a sensor problem. I didn't have t= he ability to give it a lot of attention because we were in a loose formati= on. Soon after we pulled it together for a tight formation power switched o= ff. I tried to find a road, but quickly ran out of options and put it down = in a bean field. With the beans hitting the flaps it brought me to a stop i= n about 200ft, just before I would have gone into the full grown corn. As m= entioned, wheel pants broke in half but no other damage besides pulling bea= n leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farmers were very nice, and the = stories are true... they have attractive daughters. They were out there bar= efoot in their Sunday best enjoying the excitement. Helped me clean the fue= l filter and replace the fuses. Within a couple of hours I was able to take= off from one of their driveways as they all waived good bye (but strangely= , no one took me up on my offer for a ride).

Landed at OSH just befo= re dark to a reserved parking space and a very warm reception from the form= ation group and friends. Great support from everyone all around, though I a= m trying to avoid the obvious new call signs they are trying to give me.
--
David Leonard
This message, = and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and m= ay contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclos= ure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, ple= ase notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Plea= se then delete the original message. Thank you.






-- <= BR>David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net



--
David Le= onard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

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