Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #58406
From: <Lehanover@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Coolint Tip and Tricks by Stewart Warner - good reading.: [Fl...
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 11:46:43 -0400 (EDT)
To: <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Well, yes and no.
 
The real numbers can be had by building the proposed system on a test stand in an effort to remove as many variables as is possible.
 
Car radiators from the early days probably did produce such drag numbers, because the individual razor sharp edged tubes stuck up into the tanks an 1/8" or so and thus produced a flow disaster. Both in inlet and outlet of the tubes. Vena contracta stuff you know.
Modern radiators and heat exchangers in general are much improved in this regard. The thinking here is the quest for more fuel mileage. So, less drag, smaller water pumps, more mileage. Easy.
 
Some modern radiators have plastic end tanks that are crimped in place with many little finger wrapped around the tank flange. These radiators will not support very high coolant pressures. A failed seal or head gasket will/can blow a tank clear off the core. My wife's car did that.  
 
The really good radiator designs had diagonal dents in each tube with those on the opposite side at a reversed angle in order to turbulate the coolant and keep the tube surface scrubbed of cooled coolant which tends to cling to the tubes surface and insulate hotter coolant. Worse if antifreeze is in the mixture. So, limit anti freeze to what you have to have for your area. Use distilled water, 10% or as needed anti freeze
and 1/2 teaspoon full of Dawn dishwashing detergent. (because Dawn is easy on your hands).
 
Why a double pass?
 It puts both inlet and outlet on the same end tank. Handy for some installations.
You can imagine that it just makes the radiator twice as wide (tube length) with half the tube count. The down side is the drag from coolant leaving one set of tubes and entering another to get back to the first end tank and half the tube count.
 
This works great in racing. It is a pain to convert an existing radiator to double pass. One outlet must be moved to another tank. The hole must be covered. Best to order the double pass from a racing radiator manufacturer.
 
Why a triple pass?
 
Usually done to existing copper radiators but can be done to aluminum if you have a TIG machine. No outlets need be moved. Just install two baffles through the tanks using a hack saw cut. Solder in place or TIG if aluminum.
 
Imagine a radiator three times as wide with 1/3 the tube count. The down side is drag from the tube count and two junctions where coolant re-enters the tubes to get to the outlet.
 
How can my little water pump get coolant through all of that drag?
 
That little water pump is designed to provide enough flow to keep the engine alive as you cross Death Valley on a really hot day with the air conditioning running.
 
In the airplane you will be turning the pump two or three times as fast as in the car. In the race car at 9,600 RPM maybe 5 times as fast.
 
So, the stock pump is plenty big enough for aircraft use.
 
What is that about a restrictor and or a thermostat?
 
The stock thermostat in the Mazda is a Rube Goldberg design that has everything involved but a mouse with a candle on its back and a bowling ball. The major thought should be: thermostats fail in the closed position. That special fluid leaks out of the brass bellows and the thermostat snaps shut. Never to open again. Pulling off power may get you another few minutes to look for "Nearest" or maybe not. Worse if you normally have high coolant temps.
 
The design is a result of the Peoples Republic of California having different pollution rules than all of the other states. Rapid warm up to limit HC. So, that odd thermostat opens a loop for engine only circulation when cold. Then when hot opens the radiator loop and closes off the engine only loop with a foot valve. Most users just tap the foot valve hole for a 1/2" pipe thread and install a pipe plug. A hex drive plug looks very nice.
Then a conventional "American" thermostat can be installed, if you have to have one like in the Great White North. You can drill three 1/8" holes through the rim of the thermostat in Southern climes or just two in the North, and a thermostat failure will not kill you right away. With a power reduction, the engine can cool really well with coolant flowing through
just 3 such holes. Pull the power back, push nearest, turn the heater fan up full blast. Declare a screw up.
 
Note here that good thermostats already have a hole in them to allow flow and bubbles to pass through even when they are closed. This assures that heated coolant can get to the thermostat and cause it to open. In some cases a caged BB is involved, but the idea is that there must be at least one hole.
 
Should I use a restrictor?
 
In aircraft, probably not. A restrictor is used to keep the suction side of the pump from pulling the inlet below ambient pressure (14.7 PSI at sea level). In aircraft the pump is running at? 4,000/ 5,000 RPM?
 
This keeps cavitation from damaging the pump and the radiator tubes near the outlet. Not a factor in aircraft, but a yes in racing where the shifts are at 9,600 RPM and the pump is screaming.   
 
You have noticed that the suction side outlets on car radiators are bigger than the inlets.
And, the suction side hose has a wire support spring inside.
That is to prevent that hose from collapsing when you scream the stock engine. See a pattern here?
 
A restrictor may also raise the water pressure in the block just a bit which is good news.
 
Is Stewart Warner just lying to sell stuff like the super high flow water pumps and the trick thermostats with hoes in the edge.
 
Did you hear a Turnip truck go by?
 
No, they have collected real data to back up each statement and run it by the lawyers. It may not have been recovered from the same engine, or even the same radiator, or during the same year, but I bet they have the DATA to support each statement.
 
Stewart Warner sponsored my car for a year and I found them to be supportive of racing, and never had a problem with any of the products we used. Very nice people. And thank you for you're support.
 
In any case rig up a test stand and prove or disprove any such claims, and publish your findings here.
 
This is just my opinion, and may be completely wrong.
 
Lynn E. Hanover  
Rotary engines since 1980
 
 
 
In a message dated 6/16/2012 8:08:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes:
Here is a link to Steward Warner site with tips and information on radiator parameter.  Very good information
 
 
I've found no better, credible source of information that is easy to understand -  the best part -> no math required {:>)
 
Regarding double pass radiators - like anything else there are pros and cons.  Here is an extract from that site:
 
 
Double pass radiators require 16x more pressure to flow the same volume of coolant through them, as compared to a single pass radiator. Triple pass radiators require 64x more pressure to maintain the same volume. Automotive water pumps are a centrifugal design, not positive displacement, so with a double pass radiator, the pressure is doubled and flow is reduced by approximately 33%. Modern radiator designs, using wide/thin cross sections tubes, seldom benefit from multiple pass configurations. The decrease in flow caused by multiple passes offsets any benefits of a high-flow water pump.
The one basic equation of heat transfer Q = mDT/Cp.  So if you reduce the mass flow m by 33%- that is going to have equal reduction in heat transfer (Q).  Now if the double pass causes a better DT then you recover some of the heat transfer, but all 33% lost to less mass flow?
 
  Now if you can get the flow back up then the double pass offers benefits.  A higher capacity/higher pressure pump capable of producing 16 times more pressure  -  or some means to increase flow would seem desirable. 
 
The bottom line is you can not consider just one aspect of a cooling system and overly optimize on it.  You cooling system is exactly that - and it is a system which is no better than the weakness link in the cooling chain, be it coolant flow, heat transfer characteristics (# fins/sq inch, thickness, surface area, etc), air flow, specific heat of coolant and on. 
 
  Frequently you will find (as Tracy recently pointed out) that it is the small details that makes one system successful and another seeming similar system not. 
 
Will a double flow work - certainly it will - given enough heat transfer surface and airflow across it almost any cooling system can be make to work.  The question is what  (as always) are the trade offs?
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 11:17 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: inlets and outlets

The double pass radiator increases the efficiency of the radiator by about 50%.
You have tanks on both sides. One side has a partition in the tank with the inlet at the top and outlet at the bottom.
The coolant flows across the top half of the core into the non-partitioned tank then back across the lower half back to the partitioned tank and out the outlet.
 
That's the way I went with a custom Ron Davis radiator.


On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 9:49 PM, <CozyGirrrl@aol.com> wrote:
I can certainly see the logic in a single pass radiator of in on top and out on bottom.
 
With a dual pass design (tanks top and bottom) what would be the advantage of inlets and outlets on the bottom -vs- the top in a case with the water pump above the top of the radiator?
 
In both cases their would be a vent line to the swirl pot from the top tanks.
 
...C&R

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