X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bk0-f52.google.com ([209.85.214.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with ESMTPS id 5570377 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 May 2012 10:07:09 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bkcjc3 with SMTP id jc3so844580bkc.25 for ; Thu, 31 May 2012 07:06:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=WJKiOOIuIXGlBqkdIgFxekpy6lu4QBmDQVcUrU3pPYc=; b=TEF7QbXcwDzbN/JY1DBgIzaFrZerPtAcuv8T1kiyj8vEv9CNCA1zBV6NW5AVsBfeDg B8zxbbkL/tWzEu46JvQeIyeLkXr/Gs5bwcSJPBgKH+4txUyJbhS2Hf0vlpvtNWFpkl5c Z1r7zpzriw/khJOqOHclZ2SqxpziCTS/I1CEG8FBwwsgfhsV45UG4Ak8Mu+UN63tIyn/ dzdnIgsm01OE4/KNfW8YmmuT4J0w2NLVeeIyUuZLwzX/g1DS5jdpjyVt8ErWb7iieSZ3 FDTHVmaQdro4pbh4yz20IztA5TB1SHT4i7kGsbSzrHJOUTuUKV5GfByyDgemiY5VDQds x9TQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.156.150 with SMTP id x22mr1619064bkw.55.1338473194417; Thu, 31 May 2012 07:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.97.194 with HTTP; Thu, 31 May 2012 07:06:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 09:06:34 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175924e24b6d5d04c1559333 --0015175924e24b6d5d04c1559333 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, OK, now I understand. The only thing is that my engine idles great, better than ever, and extremely well for a p-port. I expect what will happen is it will run much richer on the secondaries since my secondaries are 1.5 times larger than the 460cc primaries. Although I could temporarily swap the 60# secondary injectors for some 42# injectors I have sitting on the shelf. That would be a pretty close match. I'll have plenty of time to do some testing as they have closed 50R for the next 16 days while they re-surface the runway and taxiways. Mark On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Bill Schertz wrote: > Mark, > The reason that I asked the question about idle on the secondary injector= s > is that when I first started the engine, with a Blue Mountain EFIS, I fou= nd > that the engine ran very rich on the primaries, which were preferred by t= he > EC-2 at idle, but when I switched to the secondary injectors the engine > smoothed out. This led to the investigation of why, since all my injector= s > were the same size. I then found the problem with the BMA tach signal > holding an injector open (or causing it to close slowly) that was fixed > with Tracy=92s recommendation of a 2K resistor in the line to limit the > current draw from the BMA. Just a diagnostic. > > Bill Schertz > KIS Cruiser #4045 > N343BS > 77 hours > > *From:* Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:23 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing > > Tracy, > > Yes it is wired per your schematic with separate switches for primary and > secondary injectors. I just haven't tried to see if it will idle on the > secondaries only, and I don't really understand what this has to do with > my current issue of cutting out at 4-5k rpm. But I can run the test > anyway. > > Q: When you bench test & update the s/w on EC-2's do you look at the fue= l > injector signals? What would you suspect as to the cause of an extra ric= h > mixture in one rotor? > > Mark > > On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:19 PM, Tracy wrote: > >> Mark, >> If you have the injector backup mode switches installed, all you have to >> do is disable the primaries while idling and it should go to the >> secondaries automatically. You may have to be ready on the mixture >> control to lean it out when you switch over since your secondaries are >> larger. >> >> Tracy >> >> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mark Steitle wrote= : >> >>> I don't know if it does. I've never tried idling on the secondaries >>> with this intake. My previous intake used 60# Deka IV injectors for >>> primary and secondary injectors and it didn't idle well at all... 1800 >>> rpm was about as low as I could get it to run smoothly. But I >>> attribute that to the location of the primary injectors (upstream of >>> the slide throttle) which caused fuel puddling at low throttle >>> settings. Since my secondaries are still located upstream of the >>> butterflies, I would guess it wouldn't idle very well either. As I >>> said before, one of my goals for my new intake was to re-position the >>> primary injectors downstream of the butterflies in hopes of improving >>> the idle characteristics. It appears that I accomplished that goal. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> On 5/30/12, Bill Schertz wrote: >>> > How does it idle on secondaries? >>> > >>> > Bill Schertz >>> > KIS Cruiser #4045 >>> > N343BS >>> > Phase one testing Completed >>> > >>> > From: Mark Steitle >>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:54 PM >>> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing >>> > >>> > Ernest, >>> > >>> > With my current setup, this p-port engine idles better than my >>> side-port >>> > motor ever did. It will idle down to 750-800 rpm if asked, although = I >>> > normally idle at 1500-1600. Still, it might be an interesting >>> experiment to >>> > add temporary dividers in the airbox to see what effect it would have >>> on >>> > tuning. >>> > >>> > If you take a close look at the picture I posted you can see the blue >>> fuel >>> > rail. This is the primary fuel rail feeding the primary injectors. >>> They're >>> > located downstream of the butterflies, very close to the intake ports >>> and >>> > pointed directly at the rotor faces. I can't imagine how the fuel >>> could >>> > find its way 18" back down the runner and back into the other >>> runners. I've >>> > never found any residual fuel in the airbox either. I don't see how >>> the >>> > fuel could be pooling so close to the ports, especially at 4500 rpm. >>> But >>> > then I'm not an expert in fuel injection design either. >>> > >>> > Alleviating fuel pooling in the runners was one of the design goals >>> with >>> > this latest intake. My previous slide throttle had both the primary >>> and >>> > secondary injectors located upstream of the slide. This caused fuel >>> > pooling, especially at very low throttle settings. Needless to say, >>> this >>> > made low throttle tuning almost impossible. So, the new intake has t= he >>> > primary injectors downstream of the butterflies, and it idles great. >>> > >>> > Mark >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Ernest Christley >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Mark Steitle wrote: >>> > > Ernest, >>> > > >>> > > I don't understand how that could happen if my injectors are afte= r >>> the >>> > > airbox (see attached pic). >>> > > >>> > > Mark >>> > >>> > >>> > At idle, the intakes coming off the airbox can set up some serious >>> > standing waves that will suspend fuel droplets and >>> > let it stick to the walls. You're set-up is very similar to mine, >>> in that >>> > the fuel can run downhill and air has to pass >>> > in front of one runner before reaching the others. Some of that >>> suspended >>> > fuel will coalesce on the wall and drivel >>> > down the runner, and any coming out of the middle will get pushed >>> back to >>> > the rear (which will then be running over rich). >>> > >>> > It would also be interesting to watch individual MAPs across the >>> runners. >>> > Dollars to donuts that the first runner's >>> > inlet is at a partial vacuum compared to the rear one. >>> > >>> > I may be wrong about the mechanism, but I know my fix fixed whateve= r >>> was >>> > wrong. I inserted a plate so that the runners >>> > could not "see" the air intake. The air hits the plate and spreads >>> out >>> > before heading to the runners directly, instead >>> > of flying past the first on the way to the second. >>> > >>> > Going off of what I think I know, I would use a handsaw to cut a sl= ot >>> > halfway through the plenum between the runners. >>> > Then I would slide a partition between them. It would essentially >>> create >>> > three stalls that the runners originate from. >>> > The point being that air would not be able to go past one runner on >>> the >>> > way to the second. >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> > Archive and UnSub: >>> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> >> > --0015175924e24b6d5d04c1559333 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill,=A0

OK, now I understand. =A0The only thing is that= my engine idles great, better than ever, and extremely well for a p-port. = =A0I expect what will happen is it will run much richer on the secondaries = since my secondaries are 1.5 times larger than the 460cc primaries. =A0Alth= ough I could temporarily swap the 60# secondary injectors for some 42# inje= ctors I have sitting on the shelf. =A0That would be a pretty close match.

I'll have plenty of time to do some testing as they= have closed 50R for the next 16 days while they re-surface the runway and = taxiways.=A0

Mark =A0=A0

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Bill Schertz <wschertz@comcast.net<= /a>> wrote:
Mark,
The reason that I asked the question about idle on the secondary injec= tors=20 is that when I first started the engine, with a Blue Mountain EFIS, I found= that=20 the engine ran very rich on the primaries, which were preferred by the EC-2= at=20 idle, but when I switched to the secondary injectors the engine smoothed ou= t.=20 This led to the investigation of why, since all my injectors were the same = size.=20 I then found the problem with the BMA tach signal holding an injector open = (or=20 causing it to close slowly) that was fixed with Tracy=92s recommendation of= a 2K=20 resistor in the line to limit the current draw from the BMA.=A0 Just a=20 diagnostic.
=A0
Bill=20 Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
77 hours
=A0
Tracy,=A0=20
=A0
Yes it is wired per your schematic with separate switches for primary = and=20 secondary injectors.=A0 I just haven't tried to see if it will idle on = the=20 secondaries only,=A0 and I don't really understand what this has to do = with=20 my current issue of cutting out at 4-5k rpm.=A0 But I can run the test=20 anyway.
=A0
Q:=A0 When you bench test & update the s/w on EC-2's do you lo= ok at=20 the fuel injector signals?=A0 What would you suspect as to the cause of an= =20 extra rich mixture in one rotor?=A0
=A0
Mark

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:19 PM, Tracy <rwstra= cy@gmail.com> wrote:
Mark,
If you have the injector bac= kup mode switches=20 installed, all you have to do is disable the primaries while idling and i= t=20 should go to the secondaries automatically.=A0=A0 You may have to be=20 ready on the mixture control to lean it out when you switch over=A0 since= =20 your secondaries are larger.

Tracy

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mark Steitle= <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know if it does.=A0 I&#= 39;ve never tried idling on=20 the secondaries
with this intake.=A0 My previous intake used 60# Dek= a=20 IV injectors for
primary and secondary injectors and it didn't i= dle well=20 at all... 1800
rpm was about as low as I could get it to run=20 smoothly.=A0 But I
attribute that to the location of the primary=20 injectors (upstream of
the slide throttle) which caused fuel puddlin= g at=20 low throttle
settings.=A0 Since my secondaries are still located=20 upstream of the
butterflies, I would guess it wouldn't idle very= well=20 either.=A0 As I
said before, one of my goals for my new intake was t= o=20 re-position the
primary injectors downstream of the butterflies in h= opes=20 of improving
the idle characteristics.=A0 It appears that I=20 accomplished that goal.

Mark

On 5/30/12, Bill Schertz <wschertz@comcast.net> wrote:
> How do= es it idle=20 on secondaries?
>
> Bill Schertz
> KIS Cruiser=20 #4045
> N343BS
> Phase one testing Completed
>
>= ;=20 From: Mark Steitle
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:54 PM
> = To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector=20 balancing
>
> Ernest,
>
> With my current setup= ,=20 this p-port engine idles better than my side-port
> motor ever=20 did.=A0 It will idle down to 750-800 rpm if asked, although I
>= =20 normally idle at 1500-1600.=A0 Still, it might be an interesting=20 experiment to
> add temporary dividers in the airbox to see what= =20 effect it would have on
> tuning.
>
> If you take a c= lose=20 look at the picture I posted you can see the blue fuel
> rail.=A0= =20 This is the primary fuel rail feeding the primary injectors.=A0=20 They're
> located downstream of the butterflies, very close t= o the=20 intake ports and
> pointed directly at the rotor faces.=A0 I can&= #39;t=20 imagine how the fuel could
> find its way 18" back down the = runner and=20 back into the other runners.=A0 I've
> never found any residu= al=20 fuel in the airbox either.=A0 I don't see how the
> fuel coul= d be=20 pooling so close to the ports, especially at 4500 rpm.=A0 But
>= =20 then I'm not an expert in fuel injection design either.
>
= >=20 Alleviating fuel pooling in the runners was one of the design goals=20 with
> this latest intake.=A0 My previous slide throttle had both= =20 the primary and
> secondary injectors located upstream of the=20 slide.=A0 This caused fuel
> pooling, especially at very low=20 throttle settings.=A0 Needless to say, this
> made low throttle= =20 tuning almost impossible.=A0 So, the new intake has the
> primary= =20 injectors downstream of the butterflies, and it idles great.
>>=20 Mark
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 4:= 32=20 PM, Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net>
>=20 wrote:
>
>=A0=A0 Mark Steitle wrote:
>=A0=A0=20 > Ernest,
>=A0=A0 >
>=A0=A0 > I don't=20 understand how that could happen if my injectors are after=20 the
>=A0=A0 > airbox (see attached pic).
>=A0=A0=20 >
>=A0=A0 > Mark
>
>
>=A0=A0 At=20 idle, the intakes coming off the airbox can set up some serious
>= =20 standing waves that will suspend fuel droplets and
>=A0=A0 let=20 it stick to the walls.=A0 You're set-up is very similar to mine, in= =20 that
> the fuel can run downhill and air has to=20 pass
>=A0=A0 in front of one runner before reaching the=20 others.=A0 Some of that suspended
> fuel will coalesce on the wal= l=20 and drivel
>=A0=A0 down the runner, and any coming out of the=20 middle will get pushed back to
> the rear (which will then be run= ning=20 over rich).
>
>=A0=A0 It would also be interesting to=20 watch individual MAPs across the runners.
> Dollars to donuts tha= t the=20 first runner's
>=A0=A0 inlet is at a partial vacuum compared = to=20 the rear one.
>
>=A0=A0 I may be wrong about the=20 mechanism, but I know my fix fixed whatever was
> wrong.=A0 I=20 inserted a plate so that the runners
>=A0=A0 could not "see&= quot; the=20 air intake.=A0 The air hits the plate and spreads out
> before=20 heading to the runners directly, instead
>=A0=A0 of flying past= =20 the first on the way to the second.
>
>=A0=A0 Going off of= =20 what I think I know, I would use a handsaw to cut a slot
> halfwa= y=20 through the plenum between the runners.
>=A0=A0 Then I would=20 slide a partition between them.=A0 It would essentially create
>= =20 three stalls that the runners originate from.
>=A0=A0 The point= =20 being that air would not be able to go past one runner on the
> w= ay to=20 the second.
>
>
>=A0=A0 --
>=A0=A0=20 Homepage:=A0 ht= tp://www.flyrotary.com/
>=A0=A0 Archive and=20 UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/fly= rotary/List.html
>
>

-= -
Homepage:=A0 http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:=A0=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyro= tary/List.html

=A0

--0015175924e24b6d5d04c1559333--