X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [137.118.16.51] (HELO smtp1.av-mx.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5482422 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 15 Apr 2012 17:17:48 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=137.118.16.51; envelope-from=res12@fairpoint.net Received: from MAIN (unknown [66.243.229.199]) (Authenticated sender: res12@fairpoint.net) by smtp1.av-mx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D847291BDC for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2012 17:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: "Richard Sohn" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Laser Ignition, was: [FlyRotary] Re: The 16X is A L I V E... Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:17:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01CD1B23.3630B720" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3538.513 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3538.513 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01CD1B23.3630B720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been using the MSD Street fire on the single rotor test stand for = two years and was sure it was going to be in the airplane too. The = positive issue is the fact that it fires even a flooded engine, and I = had plenty of that during carburetor selection.=20 The reason I do not have it in the airplane is, because the single rotor = fires only once per e-shaft revolution. Any four or more cylinder engine = fires at least twice per revolution. This difference is enough at = cranking a new engine, for the trigger guard to prevent a trigger, = because the time between the first and second trigger pule is to long.=20 My engine on the test stand is worn in(or out) enough to crank faster = and overcome that trigger limitation. This prevented me from detecting = the issue before putting the new engine into the airplane.=20 Now I have an ordinary transistor ignition, for the time being. FWIW. Richard Sohn N2071U http://www.fairpoint.net/~res12/home.html From: downing.j@sbcglobal.net=20 Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:06 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Laser Ignition, was: [FlyRotary] Re: The 16X is = A L I V E... Charlie, I'm really quite surprised that someone on the rotary site = hasn't tried an MSD Digital Capacitive Discharge ignition system, it = might even blast a few more hours out of the a set of plugs. John ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Charlie England=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 2:06 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Laser Ignition, was: [FlyRotary] Re: The 16X = is A L I V E... I can assure you that while you might need to ground one to 'make it = quit', there are lots of ways it can (and does) quit on its own without = your assistance. There's a reason that mags are the only truly redundant item that's = standard equipment on a basic FAA-blessed aircraft, & it isn't because = of big combustion chambers. FWIW, I won't be trying to home-brew a lasar ignition system. But if = multiple car makers are taking a serious look, it's a pretty safe bet = that they are confident in both the efficiency gains and the potential = reliability (they really do hate warranty returns, and EPA performance = requirements last a looong time on new cars). Once a system has been on = the road for a few years, I'd sure be interested in the motor that's = designed for it. After all, what's the MTBF for rotary plugs in aviation use, 30-40 = hrs? How much longer until someone gets the dreaded 'SAG' while trying = to climb out of a valley? Charlie On 04/14/2012 10:03 PM, CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote:=20 LOL, and so some new fangled laser system yet to be proven is going = to cure all of our ills? Lets just say it will be fun to sit back and = watch with optimism for awhile. The early adopters can tell us all about = it.=20 I am curious, we tout our rotary systems and our EFI over = conventional aircraft systems, yet for every wire we have there are two = terminations, how many of the wires hooking up our systems are critical = to keep it running? Got a number?, multiply that by two. Terminations = are a huge liability. A mag has to be grounded out to make it quit. Not saying it is = better, but from this one angle it sure is simpler.=20 Chrissi & Randi www.CozyGirrrl.com CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop In a message dated 4/14/2012 7:28:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time, = echristley@att.net writes: On 04/14/2012 11:39 AM, CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote:=20 High voltage is cheap and has worked well for over 100 years. /end It's her last paragraph that concerned me the most. I spent 20 = years working with HID systems focused into fiber optics. Her last = sentence says it all.=20 I am not against innovation but I am very cautious. Chrissi & Randi She is correct, except that word "well" has a very fuzzy meaning. = There are many levels of "well". Magnetos work well. Points work well. = Electronic ignition works well. Capacitive discharge works well..... ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01CD1B23.3630B720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have been using the MSD Street fire on the single rotor test = stand for=20 two years and was sure it was going to be in the airplane too. The = positive=20 issue is the fact that it fires even a flooded engine, and I had plenty = of that=20 during carburetor selection.
The reason I do not have it in the airplane is, because the single = rotor=20 fires only once per e-shaft revolution. Any four or more cylinder engine = fires=20 at least twice per revolution. This difference is enough at cranking a = new=20 engine, for the trigger guard to prevent a trigger, because the time = between the=20 first and second trigger pule is to long.
My engine on the test stand is worn in(or out) enough to crank = faster and=20 overcome that trigger limitation. This prevented me from detecting the = issue=20 before putting the new engine into the airplane.
Now I have an ordinary transistor ignition, for the time = being.
FWIW.
 
Richard=20 Sohn
N2071U

http://www.fairpoint.net/~res12/home.html
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:06 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Laser Ignition, was: [FlyRotary] = Re: The=20 16X is A L I V E...
 
Charlie, I'm really quite surprised = that someone on=20 the rotary site hasn't tried an MSD Digital Capacitive Discharge = ignition=20 system, it might even blast a few more hours out of the a set of = plugs. =20 John
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Charlie=20 England
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 = 2:06=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Laser = Ignition,=20 was: [FlyRotary] Re: The 16X is A L I V E...
 
I can assure you that while you might need to ground = one to=20 'make it quit',  there are lots of ways it can (and does) quit on = its own=20 without your assistance.

There's a reason that mags are the = only truly=20 redundant item that's standard equipment on a basic FAA-blessed = aircraft,=20 & it isn't because of big combustion chambers.

FWIW, I = won't be=20 trying to home-brew a lasar ignition system. But if multiple car = makers are=20 taking a serious look, it's a pretty safe bet that they are confident = in both=20 the efficiency gains and the potential reliability (they really do = hate=20 warranty returns, and EPA performance requirements last a looong time = on new=20 cars). Once a system has been on the road for a few years, I'd sure be = interested in the motor that's designed for it.

After all, = what's the=20 MTBF for rotary plugs in aviation use, 30-40 hrs? How much longer = until=20 someone gets the dreaded 'SAG' while trying to climb out of a=20 valley?

Charlie


On 04/14/2012 10:03 PM, CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote:=20
LOL, and so some new fangled laser system yet to be proven is = going to=20 cure all of our ills? Lets just say it will be fun to sit back and = watch=20 with optimism for awhile. The early adopters can tell us all about = it.=20
 
I am curious, we tout our rotary systems and our EFI over = conventional=20 aircraft systems, yet for every wire we have there are two = terminations, how=20 many of the wires hooking up our systems are critical to keep it = running?=20 Got a number?, multiply that by two. Terminations are a huge=20 liability.
A mag has to be grounded out to make it quit. Not saying it is = better,=20 but from this one angle it sure is simpler.
 
Chrissi=20 & Randi
www.CozyGirrrl.com
CG Products, = Custom=20 Aircraft Hardware
Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop
 
In a message dated 4/14/2012 7:28:10 P.M. Central Daylight = Time, echristley@att.net = writes:
On=20 04/14/2012 11:39 AM, CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote:=20
High voltage is cheap and has worked well for over 100=20 years.
/end
 
It's her last paragraph that concerned me the most. I spent = 20=20 years working with HID systems focused into fiber optics. Her = last=20 sentence says it all.
I am not against innovation but I am very cautious.
Chrissi & = Randi
She is=20 correct, except that word "well" has a very fuzzy meaning.  = There are=20 many levels of "well".  Magnetos work well.  Points work = well.  Electronic ignition works well.  Capacitive = discharge=20 works=20 = well.....
<= BR> ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01CD1B23.3630B720--