X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-db02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.96] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTP id 5479436 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:04:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.96; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.200]) by imr-db02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q3D23hgB001881 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:03:43 -0400 Received: from core-mob001b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mob001.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.194.193]) by mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 00678E000085 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:03:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: <8322.29245810.3cb8e37d@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: top oil and apex seals. To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_8322.29245810.3cb8e37d_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 5004 X-Originating-IP: [173.88.30.23] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1334282623; bh=DqQv8yLaHmUBhYcOS7c2y8f7kWxPqw74eqQ62EWUHKY=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=WmmsAq62g0RPqQkLYTT/TnohyPbMhZ3i1tHI7YfGssKHjp/3w6SqEcx/0Zu010e5u sVwzl8ZkRZl2jQngdL3ZEqN5e9d+TEJu3zpmP8WjFjekG3J+oSL1nqEXyF4fSAIOgf WODDQNM9GJu6GBRNVgv6Af6qshiqTBDzF2/C35IM= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:416850688:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c84f87897e7c98 --part1_8322.29245810.3cb8e37d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Use a cheap non-synthetic straight weight like Texaco 30 weight. It is absolute crap. Low film strength everything you would not want in your engine. Run in at fast idle 1,500 RPM working up to 2,200 RPM over 2 hours at operating temps, (controlled with a blower or garden hose on the radiators). This is with no load. So actual fuel consumption will be nil. Use the cheap oil in the OMP and premix as well. Then dump the oil and cut open the filter and lay out the element paper for a good look. Very tiny bits of silver flakes and silicone blobs are fine. Silvery looking oil and big chunks of metal are not fine. If all is well, refill with a name brand racing conventional oil like 40 weight Valvoline racing and a name brand 2 cycle in a premix at 1 ounce per gallon and run the OMP wide open if used also fed a ash free 2 cycle oil. Do all of your testing and taxi and power testing with that set up then do the filter check again and dump the racing oil and refill with a 40 weight racing synthetic. More antiscuff and anti foaming agents and the highest film strength. Also transfers oil temp much better than conventional oils. Do not use a synthetic crank case oil in the OMP. Just 2 cycle oil. A properly assembled engine will not suffer an oil related failure, IF: The oil is not over heated. Not over 210 when loaded. 160 is ideal, 180 is serviceable but worrisome, 200 on a scalding hot day for climb out but not cruise. 210 requires a power reduction. The oil is not damaged but bearing overlay becomes much hotter in the loaded zone (the wedge)and may begin to move out of place. Very bad MOJO. AND oil pressure is kept above 80 pounds. Not because the oversized bearings are in danger from loadings but because the higher pressure moves superheated oil in the wedge off of the bearings faster. Notice that oil temperatures respond to load very quickly. Oil at 200? just back off the power a bit and it comes down like magic. For the racer when just new side seals are installed, I do the 2 hour thing in the shop, then at the track a warm up session on the track starting off at 7,000 RPM for one lap then the next lap at not over 8,000 then the next lap at not over 9,000 RPM then hammer it with normal shift points at 9,600 RPM. The main and rotor bearings stay in the engine for as long as it runs. Ceramic apex seals do not wear out. Carbon race apex seals wear out in about 3 years. I never tried to run stock seals but have heard good things about them. Rotor housings do not wear out with racing seals, ceramic or carbon. They have nearly no weight. Stock seals are heavy and wear grooves into the housing chrome when you scream the engine. Airplane RPM is nothing close to that kind of problem. The wear with synthetic oil in a new engine is so slight that it will take a month of hard use to get it to break in and seal up. That means nothing in the crank case breather catch can. An unloaded engine with no load and no rev limiter can go to 10,000 RPM in half a heart beat. Start up should be done with TB butterflies at fully closed and with multiple springs pulling toward fully closed. Before starting you disable the ignition and chase the oil through the system with the starter. Fill the oil filter and screw it on. Unhook the far end of the next hose and spin until you get oil gushing out of that end. Hook that up and go on until you are back on the engine and unhook the oil pressure sender and watch for oil to come out there. Then spin up some oil pressure before a starting attempt. You should be able to pump up 20 to 50 pounds just with the starter. Then check the oil level in the sump and add as required. Start the engine and limit the RPM to 3,000 by hand on the TB. Verify oil pressure first, Then, one hand on the water outlet from the Norice to assure warming water flowing by one minute. If no flow burp the water system and repeat. The engines like to hide lots of air and then give it up only weeks later. After the first hour of break in,rev it up to 4,000 RPM a few times to get that air out of the block. Front of the engine higher than the rear works better for this. This is a really big deal and will bring great joy. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 4/10/2012 1:14:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, CozyGirrrl@aol.com writes: Lynn, thanks for the helpful information, what about a brand new engine, all new parts, what to use for break in oil and for how long? Chrissi & Randi --part1_8322.29245810.3cb8e37d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Use a cheap non-synthetic straight weight like Texaco 30 weight. It is= =20 absolute crap. Low film strength everything you would not want in your
engine. Run in at fast idle 1,500 RPM working up to 2,200 RPM ove= r 2=20 hours at operating temps, (controlled with a blower or garden hose on the= =20 radiators). This is with no load. So actual fuel consumption will be nil. U= se=20 the cheap oil in the OMP and premix as well.
 
Then dump the oil and cut open the filter and lay out the element pape= r for=20 a good look. Very tiny bits of silver flakes and silicone blobs are fine.= =20 Silvery looking oil and big chunks of metal are not fine. If all is well, r= efill=20 with a name brand racing conventional oil like 40 weight Valvoline rac= ing=20 and a name brand 2 cycle in a premix at 1 ounce per gallon and run the OMP = wide=20 open if used also fed a ash free 2 cycle oil. Do all of your testing and ta= xi=20 and power testing with that set up then do the filter check again and dump = the=20 racing oil and refill with a 40 weight racing synthetic. More antiscuff&nbs= p;=20 and anti foaming agents and the highest film strength.  Also transfers= oil=20 temp much better than conventional oils.
 
Do not use a synthetic crank case oil in the OMP. Just 2 cycle=20 oil. 
 
A properly assembled engine will not suffer an oil related failure,=20 IF:
The oil is not over heated. Not over 210 when loaded. 160 is idea= l,=20 180 is serviceable but worrisome, 200 on a scalding hot day for climb out b= ut=20 not cruise. 210 requires a power reduction. The oil is not damaged but bear= ing=20 overlay becomes much hotter in the loaded zone (the wedge)and may begin to = move=20 out of place. Very bad MOJO.
AND oil pressure is kept above 80 pounds. Not because the oversized=20 bearings are in danger from loadings but because the higher pressure moves= =20 superheated oil in the wedge off of the bearings faster.
 
Notice that oil temperatures respond to load very quickly. Oil at 200?= just=20 back off the power a bit and it comes down like magic.
 
For the racer when just new side seals are installed, I do the 2 = hour=20 thing in the shop, then at the track a warm up session on the track startin= g off=20 at 7,000 RPM for one lap then the next lap at not over 8,000 then the next = lap=20 at not over 9,000 RPM then hammer it with normal shift points at 9,600 RPM.= The=20 main and rotor bearings stay in the engine for as long as it runs. Ceramic = apex=20 seals do not wear out. Carbon race apex seals wear out in about 3 years. I = never=20 tried to run stock seals but have heard good things about them. Rotor housi= ngs=20 do not wear out with racing seals, ceramic or carbon. They have nearly no= =20 weight. Stock seals are heavy and wear grooves into the housing chrome when= you=20 scream the engine. Airplane RPM is nothing close to that kind of problem.
 
The wear with synthetic oil in a new engine is so slight that it will = take=20 a month of hard use to get it to break in and seal up. That means nothing i= n the=20 crank case breather catch can.  
 
An unloaded engine with no load and no rev limiter can go to 10,000 RP= M in=20 half a heart beat. Start up should be done with TB butterflies at fully clo= sed=20 and with multiple springs pulling toward fully closed.
 
Before starting you disable the ignition and chase the oil through the= =20 system with the starter. Fill the oil filter and screw it on. Unhook the fa= r end=20 of the next hose and spin until you get oil gushing out of that end.
Hook that up and go on until you are back on the engine and unhook the= oil=20 pressure sender and watch for oil to come out there. Then spin up some oil= =20 pressure before a starting attempt. You should be able to pump up 20 to 50= =20 pounds just with the starter. Then check the oil level in the sump and add = as=20 required. 
 
Start the engine and limit the RPM to 3,000 by hand on the TB. Verify = oil=20 pressure first, Then, one hand on the water outlet from the Norice to assur= e=20 warming water flowing by one minute. If no flow burp the water system and= =20 repeat. The engines like to hide lots of air and then give it up only = weeks=20 later. After  the first hour of break in,rev it up to 4,000 RPM a few = times=20 to get that air out of the block. Front of the engine higher than the rear = works=20 better for this. 
 
This is a really big deal and will bring great joy.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 4/10/2012 1:14:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 CozyGirrrl@aol.com writes:
=
Lynn, thanks for the helpful information, what about a brand new eng= ine,=20 all new parts, what to use for break in oil and for how long?
 
Chrissi=20 &=20 Randi
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