X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail.dca.untd.com ([64.136.47.15] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5123021 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 12:33:52 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.47.15; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1315931597; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=MqwJ0J1e5HpbKaxA6X+ki0fxYMS9q1y7j29wm2Hv2oVHgFKZDztLxZae3KtHz+ZfB zaMH1nrZxELMdJ2CGa6Z2XUX2ak+FxYvoID216OgG3JhLlmgKX475qljtaeG+XFTVH zBsijm1Jy98lRZQlb3iO/uTHUJ7GyqnMad0rZRM4= Received: from Penny (50-39-187-254.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.187.254]) by smtpout04.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABHG9BNZA2HCUV2 for (sender ); Tue, 13 Sep 2011 09:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <298ECA8616F1404E8A9BABC4AEE1685B@Penny> From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 09:32:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0210_01CC71F8.0A8A84E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-UNTD-BodySize: 27082 X-ContentStamp: 71:35:3522998499 X-MAIL-INFO:4621497161004911812d25a9a94460e05940e010a0f0c1f5c9c0598d75543939393d40cd84010c40b10081e915edc52d0004b111140c20f50959010d458db03d3970a970a46079b491895409dd5050f924a5b080d1a14464ed451da4d59dd094d0fd45fd9de47d6165b990c0a19184fd55ad65e459e5e0e01d5110f0e974c0f0a039612d79e52d6120856474f56169a900b12d11fd00f50d45edf4118954 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkM7pxNT5AgjX0eBuI6i4A9S/jaaDIYMQ3g== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.171.42.34|smtpout04.dca.untd.com|smtpout04.dca.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0210_01CC71F8.0A8A84E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = wrote: What was the system voltage during run up? At what voltage does the = EC2 shutdown? Not a likely candidate. What happens when the CAS circuit goes open? Does the EC2 stop = firing?=20 Will a exhaust blockage of ?% stop the engine completely? Steve's = testing showed a partial blockage has a major effect on power. Bill's = muffler had to be full of crud for that much to end up back in the = engine. If the HP2 lower cone was partly intact and came loose then a = major blockage is very possible. It would trap all the little pieces = that had been collecting in the muffler. My first HP had large chunks of = cone still intact along with all the little pieces. My second HP seemed = more intact when my incident occurred. Meaning less large chunks = appeared to be loose but plenty of the small crud. The outlet cone was = loose but more intact. I had hoped that moving the second muffler to the = belly would extend it's life but it didn't. In fact it may be more = dangerous since the small pieces can't be discharged as easily. My under = cowl muffler was mounted at a downward angle. Belly mount is almost = flat.=20 I agree Ed that electrons seem to be the most logical cause but may = be impossible to validate.=20 Bobby Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2011, at 10:20 AM, "Ed Anderson" = wrote: We still don't know (and may never),the causes, but Sam's and = Bills incidents based on initial information would appear to me to be = two different causes.=20 Sam's engine kept running - although sputtering and producing no = power - this to me sounds like a fuel related problem (possibly vapor = lock, possibly something else - could be muffler blockage). Bill's on = the other hand quit suddenly and without any warning - that to me sounds = more like an electrical problem - either the firing pulses to the = injector stopped or the spark stopped. =20 If I were Bill, I would use the EC2's diagnostic modes to check = out each circuit - if one doesn't check out then that is probably the = answer. If both check OK then more head scratching. Ed From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 9:43 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Bill, I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad you weren't injured. I = don't know at what percentage of exhaust blockage the engine would stop = running. Also no reports on the condition of Sam's HP2 muffler. Three = aircraft experiencing very similar problems this year is too many. If = you have leading / trailing plugs and primary / secondary injectors on = separate power feeds then it should have kept running. That leaves fuel = delivery (vapor lock), CAS circuit, Controller power, A side computer = issue or muffler? I believe Sam did switch controllers during his = incident. I didn't and had plenty of time to do so. It's now the second = item in my emergency flow.=20 One common item can be eliminated be removing any muffler that has = packing. Especially Hushpower 2 since they are common to all three = incidents. I'm assuming Sam's muffler also had loose internals.=20 Bobby Sent from my iPad On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" = wrote: I have been holding up reporting this until all the facts are = in, but that might never happen, so here we go. Good news: No injuries. =20 Bad news: I have some work to do. Photos at: http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101 On August 16th at 10 AM, I lined up for takeoff at my home = airport (3600' paved) into a 5 knot headwind. I had just finished = changing the oil and filter and plugs. Run-up was fine, so off I went. = Approximately mid-field, and a couple of hundred feet in the air, it = suddenly and without any warning became very silent. Hit the big switch which puts direct battery power to everything = engine, but no noise. No more time. At this point flying the machine = becomes THE priority. Dropped the nose and was amazed to see a little = bit of runway under the nose! I had fully expected to land in trees, = houses or the river, so I dove what seemed like straight down to capture = as much runway as possible while (somehow) holding the electric flap = switch long enough to get full flaps (noticed this later). Pulled = probably my best round-out ever - no bounce. Brakes to max and tail up = for weight. I think my sub-concious put it all the way on the nose to = try to prevent going through the fence and down the hill. Wheel skid = starts about 200 feet from the stopping point. Skid marks from the = wheel pants, cowling and prop run about the last 50 feet. It stopped = nose down just off the end. The tail was still over pavement. Pushed = the slider canopy UPHILL, stepped out and down. Noticed that I was not = even scared by the whole event. Interesting. Never even considered = trying to turn around. Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid = off. =20 More good news. No FAA or NTSB as it was a non-reportable = incident. Didn't even bend the gear legs. Also, my neighbor crashed in = a Challenger about 10 minutes earlier at the city airport about 10 miles = away. The police and rescue types were headed that way (they had = injuries) and were not interested in my minor mishap. As for the engine. When we got it back to the hangar, the prop = would turn only haltingly. You could feel grinding going on inside. = First try at turning had it come up hard and stop. More fooling with it = and it gradually came looser and would turn. Really looked like = something came loose in there. Pulled a plug from each rotor and did a = compression test. Rotor 1 was 80-80-80. Rotor 2 was 2-2-2. More proof = that something had come loose. With that evidence, the insurance = company allowed me to remove the engine for inspection. What I found = was a pile of ground up ceramic junk. All the seals were still fine. = Lots of time went in to finding where that stuff came from. Went = through every inch of the induction system. Finally Jason Hutchison (my = other on-airport rotary guy) broke the code. While the RV was standing = on it's nose, this crap from my burned-out Hushpower II ran back up the = manifold and in the exhaust port. That is what was grinding. Crap. = Now the entire thing is off the firewall including the engine mount. = All the wiring is disconnected (did not find anything loose or missing). = I spent the morning looking under the panel for any loose or broken = wiring, but found none. When I get the EC-2 out, Jason wants to plug it = into his plane and we'll do the plugs and injectors test. If that = checks out, Tracy, it is coming to you for a good look. I don't know = what else to check. The engine quit just like somebody reached over and = turned off the ignition. No stumble, no hiccup, just instant silence. = I honestly do not know if the prop was turning or not. I suspect not, = due to the silence and the fact that one blade is untouched. As you can see from the photos, there was something going on = with Rotor 1. Wear is apparent down stream from the plug holes and all = 3 apex seals are starting to chip in the center. There is quite a lot = of carbon also on the rotors after 170 hours. Going forward, I have decided to look at resale value for = if/when my RV-12 days arrive. This means putting a (gasp) IO-360 on it. = The rotary has given me a safe 10-year run (til now, of course), so I = have no regrets, but this is an opportunity to make some changes, and = parts are already on the way. I will still be hanging out at the engine = tent at S-n-F and wherever else gatherings happen. Hope to be flying by = the first of next year.... I'm sure some of you will have suggestions about what might have = gone wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, but bear in mind I am = just looking at a pile of parts and wires at this point. Both fuel = pumps were on, tanks were over half full, crank angle sensor worked = fine. Guess it's obvious that I now have a RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor = (Ed's), Felix 68/72 and Props Inc 68/72 wood props and LOTS of engine = parts (my whole 14-year stash) available! And priced to sell! Bill Eslick RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A 750 Hours ------=_NextPart_000_0210_01CC71F8.0A8A84E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<An open CAS would cause instant shutdown
 
The Oem guys have such a brilliant = solution for=20 this. They know from history that sensors occasionally fail. So they = plan on it.=20 Every revolution they count the number of pulses they saw from the CAS. = So=20 normally they see 16 pulses, with 2 breaks. The toothed wheel is missing = teeth=20 at two different spots. One area missing 3 teeth, one missing 4 teeth. = So when=20 they see TDC, they say "Hey, how'd the sensor do last revolution? Did we = get 16=20 total pulses? Did we see both a 3 tooth break and a 4 tooth break? = No? Ok,=20 then let's use the backup sensor and turn on the fault lamp. =
 
They also measure the integrity of the = backup=20 sensor. Pretty simple really, it's just software calculations. Comparing = to=20 history. The other cool thing, once you develop this logic, you have it = forever.=20 Every future pilot has a ton of extra safety if he needs it. They do = this with=20 all critical sensors. Oh, yeah. The other cool thing is that the engine = takes=20 longer to start. So the user doesn't just get fault light, they also get = poor=20 starting feedback. It's just so brilliant.
 
There's another important lesson here: = The KISS=20 concept. So often true, but every once in a while it's a big mistake. = Not a good=20 idea to blindly adopt a philosophy. Depends on the details. Two CAS = sensors are=20 much safer if you compare readings to history, make a decision. =
 
-al wick
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy
Sent: Saturday, September 10, = 2011 7:09=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The = good news=20 and the bad news......

I agree that it sounds like electrons Bobby.   An open CAS = would=20 cause instant shutdown but I've never heard of a Mazda CAS going bad.=20  Have had reports of bad Subaru CAS's. 

BTW, apologies for the confusion about your fuel system.   I = was=20 confusing you with Sam Hoskins who also had a recent power failure. =  His=20 sounded like fuel system problem but no further word from him.

Tracy Crook 

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 3, 2011, at 9:08 AM, "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes@qnsi.net> = wrote:

What was the system voltage during run up? At what voltage does = the EC2=20 shutdown?  Not a likely candidate.

What happens when the CAS circuit goes open? Does the EC2 stop=20 firing? 

Will a exhaust blockage of ?% stop the engine completely? = Steve's=20 testing showed a partial blockage has a major effect on power. = Bill's=20 muffler had to be full of crud for that much to end up back in the = engine.=20 If the HP2 lower cone was partly intact and came loose then a major = blockage=20 is very possible. It would trap all the little pieces that had been=20 collecting in the muffler. My first HP had large chunks of cone = still intact=20 along with all the little pieces. My second HP seemed more intact = when my=20 incident occurred. Meaning less large chunks appeared to be loose = but plenty=20 of the small crud. The outlet cone was loose but more intact. I had = hoped=20 that moving the second muffler to the belly would extend it's life = but it=20 didn't. In fact it may be more dangerous since the small pieces = can't be=20 discharged as easily. My under cowl muffler was mounted at a = downward angle.=20 Belly mount is almost flat. 

I agree Ed that electrons seem to be the most logical cause but = may be=20 impossible to validate. 


Bobby





Sent from my iPad

On Sep 3, 2011, at 10:20 AM, "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>=20 wrote:

We still don't know (and may never),the = causes,=20  but Sam's and Bills incidents based on initial information = would=20 appear to me to be two different causes. 
 
 Sam's engine kept running = - although=20 sputtering and producing no power - this to me sounds like a fuel = related=20 problem (possibly vapor lock, possibly something else - could be = muffler=20 blockage).  Bill's on the other hand quit suddenly and = without any=20 warning - that to me sounds more like an electrical problem - = either the=20 firing pulses to the injector stopped or the spark stopped. =20
 
If I were Bill, I would use the EC2's = diagnostic=20 modes to check out each circuit - if one doesn't check out then = that is=20 probably the answer.  If both check OK then  more head=20 scratching.
 
Ed

Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 9:43 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad=20 news......

Bill,

I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad you weren't = injured. I=20 don't know at what percentage of exhaust blockage the engine would = stop=20 running. Also no reports on the condition of Sam's HP2 muffler. = Three=20 aircraft experiencing very similar problems this year is too many. = If you=20 have  leading / trailing plugs and primary / secondary = injectors on=20 separate power feeds then it should have kept running. That leaves = fuel=20 delivery (vapor lock), CAS circuit, Controller power, A side = computer=20 issue or muffler? I believe Sam did switch controllers during his=20 incident. I didn't and had plenty of time to do so. It's now the = second=20 item in my emergency flow. 

One common item can be eliminated be removing any muffler = that has=20 packing. Especially Hushpower 2 since they are common to all three = incidents. I'm assuming Sam's muffler also had loose=20 internals. 

Bobby






Sent from my iPad

On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" <wgeslick@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

I have=20 been holding up reporting this until all the facts are in, but = that=20 might never happen, so here we go.

Good news:  No = injuries. =20

Bad news:  I have some work to do.

Photos = at: =20 http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101<= /STRONG>

On August = 16th at 10 AM,=20 I lined up for takeoff at my home airport (3600' paved) into a 5 = knot=20 headwind.  I had just finished changing the oil and filter = and=20 plugs.  Run-up was fine, so off I went.  Approximately = mid-field, and a couple of hundred feet in the air, it suddenly = and=20 without any warning became very silent.

Hit the big = switch which=20 puts direct battery power to everything engine, but no = noise.  No=20 more time.  At this point flying the machine becomes THE=20 priority.  Dropped the nose and was amazed to see a little = bit of=20 runway under the nose!  I had fully expected to land in = trees,=20 houses or the river, so I dove what seemed like straight down to = capture=20 as much runway as possible while (somehow) holding the electric = flap=20 switch long enough to get full flaps (noticed this later).  = Pulled=20 probably my best round-out ever - no bounce.  Brakes to max = and=20 tail up for weight.  I think my sub-concious put it all the = way on=20 the nose to try to prevent going through the fence and down the=20 hill.  Wheel skid starts about 200 feet from the stopping=20 point.  Skid marks from the wheel pants, cowling and prop = run about=20 the last 50 feet.  It stopped nose down just off the = end.  The=20 tail was still over pavement.  Pushed the slider canopy = UPHILL,=20 stepped out and down.  Noticed that I was not even scared = by the=20 whole event.  Interesting.  Never even considered = trying to=20 turn around.  Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid=20 off. 

More good news.  No FAA or NTSB as it = was a=20 non-reportable incident.  Didn't even bend the gear = legs. =20 Also, my neighbor crashed in a Challenger about 10 minutes = earlier at=20 the city airport about 10 miles away.  The police and = rescue types=20 were headed that way (they had injuries) and were not interested = in my=20 minor mishap.

As for the engine.  When we got it = back to the=20 hangar, the prop would turn only haltingly.  You could feel = grinding going on inside.  First try at turning had it come = up hard=20 and stop.  More fooling with it and it gradually came = looser and=20 would turn.  Really looked like something came loose in=20 there.  Pulled a plug from each rotor and did a compression = test.  Rotor 1 was 80-80-80.  Rotor 2 was 2-2-2.  = More=20 proof that something had come loose.  With that evidence, = the=20 insurance company allowed me to remove the engine for = inspection. =20 What I found was a pile of ground up ceramic junk.  All the = seals=20 were still fine.  Lots of time went in to finding where = that stuff=20 came from.  Went through every inch of the induction = system. =20 Finally Jason Hutchison (my other on-airport rotary guy) broke = the=20 code.  While the RV was standing on it's nose, this crap = from my=20 burned-out Hushpower II ran back up the manifold and in the = exhaust=20 port.  That is what was grinding.  Crap.  Now the = entire=20 thing is off the firewall including the engine mount.  All = the=20 wiring is disconnected (did not find anything loose or = missing).  I=20 spent the morning looking under the panel for any loose or = broken=20 wiring, but found none.  When I get the EC-2 out, Jason = wants to=20 plug it into his plane and we'll do the plugs and injectors = test. =20 If that checks out, Tracy, it is coming to you for a good = look.  I=20 don't know what else to check.  The engine quit just like = somebody=20 reached over and turned off the ignition.  No stumble, no = hiccup,=20 just instant silence.  I honestly do not know if the prop = was=20 turning or not.  I suspect not, due to the silence and the = fact=20 that one blade is untouched.

As you can see from the = photos,=20 there was something going on with Rotor 1.  Wear is = apparent down=20 stream from the plug holes and all 3 apex seals are starting to = chip in=20 the center.  There is quite a lot of carbon also on the = rotors=20 after 170 hours.

Going forward, I have decided to look at = resale=20 value for if/when my RV-12 days arrive.  This means putting = a=20 (gasp) IO-360 on it.  The rotary has given me a safe = 10-year run=20 (til now, of course), so I have no regrets, but this is an = opportunity=20 to make some changes, and parts are already on the way.  I = will=20 still be hanging out at the engine tent at S-n-F and wherever = else=20 gatherings happen.  Hope to be flying by the first of next=20 year....

I'm sure some of you will have suggestions about = what=20 might have gone wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, = but bear=20 in mind I am just looking at a pile of parts and wires at this=20 point.  Both fuel pumps were on, tanks were over half full, = crank=20 angle sensor worked fine.

Guess it's obvious that I now = have a=20 RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor (Ed's),  Felix 68/72 and Props Inc = 68/72=20 wood props and LOTS of engine parts (my whole 14-year stash)=20 available!  And priced to sell!

Bill=20 Eslick
RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A
750=20 = Hours



=
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