X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma06.mx.aol.com ([64.12.78.142] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5120834 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 11:45:42 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.78.142; envelope-from=CozyGirrrl@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-ma01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-ma01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.8]) by imr-ma06.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p8BFituk005977 for ; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 11:44:55 -0400 Received: from core-dsd005a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-dsd005.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.253.145]) by mtaomg-ma01.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 1364AE000085 for ; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 11:44:55 -0400 (EDT) From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Message-ID: <3473b.e394e52.3b9e3176@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 11:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_3473b.e394e52.3b9e3176_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 5004 X-Originating-IP: [69.151.8.228] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:511648064:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d29084e6cd7772a1a --part1_3473b.e394e52.3b9e3176_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tracy, We spent the day with Sam Hoskins in Marion Illinois at the Tandem Wing fly-in (Quickies) looking over his 0-200 engine with your system on it. He's been quiet due to repairs he had been making on his airframe from an unrelated incident and the plane is flying again, looking fine. He explained that he had issues with his CAS though he thought he had made a beefy mount for it that it was still not strong enough. He had added some bracing to it and improved things quite a bit. There was a second Quickie also with your EFI/ignition system on an 0-200. Both were very happy with their RWS systems. Sam's installation had an automotive aftermarket throttle body on it with an angled bung for another fuel injector where he inserted a single huge Bosch injector hooked up to channel B for a limp home mode. Chrissi & Randi _www.CozyGirrrl.com_ (http://www.cozygirrrl.com/) CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop In a message dated 9/10/2011 9:09:53 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rwstracy@gmail.com writes: I agree that it sounds like electrons Bobby. An open CAS would cause instant shutdown but I've never heard of a Mazda CAS going bad. Have had reports of bad Subaru CAS's. BTW, apologies for the confusion about your fuel system. I was confusing you with Sam Hoskins who also had a recent power failure. His sounded like fuel system problem but no further word from him. Tracy Crook Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2011, at 9:08 AM, "Bobby J. Hughes" <_bhughes@qnsi.net_ (mailto:bhughes@qnsi.net) > wrote: What was the system voltage during run up? At what voltage does the EC2 shutdown? Not a likely candidate. What happens when the CAS circuit goes open? Does the EC2 stop firing? Will a exhaust blockage of ?% stop the engine completely? Steve's testing showed a partial blockage has a major effect on power. Bill's muffler had to be full of crud for that much to end up back in the engine. If the HP2 lower cone was partly intact and came loose then a major blockage is very possible. It would trap all the little pieces that had been collecting in the muffler. My first HP had large chunks of cone still intact along with all the little pieces. My second HP seemed more intact when my incident occurred. Meaning less large chunks appeared to be loose but plenty of the small crud. The outlet cone was loose but more intact. I had hoped that moving the second muffler to the belly would extend it's life but it didn't. In fact it may be more dangerous since the small pieces can't be discharged as easily. My under cowl muffler was mounted at a downward angle. Belly mount is almost flat. I agree Ed that electrons seem to be the most logical cause but may be impossible to validate. Bobby Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2011, at 10:20 AM, "Ed Anderson" <_eanderson@carolina.rr.com_ (mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com) > wrote: We still don't know (and may never),the causes, but Sam's and Bills incidents based on initial information would appear to me to be two different causes. Sam's engine kept running - although sputtering and producing no power - this to me sounds like a fuel related problem (possibly vapor lock, possibly something else - could be muffler blockage). Bill's on the other hand quit suddenly and without any warning - that to me sounds more like an electrical problem - either the firing pulses to the injector stopped or the spark stopped. If I were Bill, I would use the EC2's diagnostic modes to check out each circuit - if one doesn't check out then that is probably the answer. If both check OK then more head scratching. Ed From: _Bobby J. Hughes_ (mailto:bhughes@qnsi.net) Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 9:43 AM To: _Rotary motors in aircraft_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Bill, I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad you weren't injured. I don't know at what percentage of exhaust blockage the engine would stop running. Also no reports on the condition of Sam's HP2 muffler. Three aircraft experiencing very similar problems this year is too many. If you have leading / trailing plugs and primary / secondary injectors on separate power feeds then it should have kept running. That leaves fuel delivery (vapor lock), CAS circuit, Controller power, A side computer issue or muffler? I believe Sam did switch controllers during his incident. I didn't and had plenty of time to do so. It's now the second item in my emergency flow. One common item can be eliminated be removing any muffler that has packing. Especially Hushpower 2 since they are common to all three incidents. I'm assuming Sam's muffler also had loose internals. Bobby Sent from my iPad On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" < (mailto:wgeslick@gmail.com) _wgeslick@gmail.com_ (mailto:wgeslick@gmail.com) > wrote: I have been holding up reporting this until all the facts are in, but that might never happen, so here we go. Good news: No injuries. Bad news: I have some work to do. Photos at: (http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101) (http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101) _http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101_ (http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101) On August 16th at 10 AM, I lined up for takeoff at my home airport (3600' paved) into a 5 knot headwind. I had just finished changing the oil and filter and plugs. Run-up was fine, so off I went. Approximately mid-field, and a couple of hundred feet in the air, it suddenly and without any warning became very silent. Hit the big switch which puts direct battery power to everything engine, but no noise. No more time. At this point flying the machine becomes THE priority. Dropped the nose and was amazed to see a little bit of runway under the nose! I had fully expected to land in trees, houses or the river, so I dove what seemed like straight down to capture as much runway as possible while (somehow) holding the electric flap switch long enough to get full flaps (noticed this later). Pulled probably my best round-out ever - no bounce. Brakes to max and tail up for weight. I think my sub-concious put it all the way on the nose to try to prevent going through the fence and down the hill. Wheel skid starts about 200 feet from the stopping point. Skid marks from the wheel pants, cowling and prop run about the last 50 feet. It stopped nose down just off the end. The tail was still over pavement. Pushed the slider canopy UPHILL, stepped out and down. Noticed that I was not even scared by the whole event. Interesting. Never even considered trying to turn around. Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid off. More good news. No FAA or NTSB as it was a non-reportable incident. Didn't even bend the gear legs. Also, my neighbor crashed in a Challenger about 10 minutes earlier at the city airport about 10 miles away. The police and rescue types were headed that way (they had injuries) and were not interested in my minor mishap. As for the engine. When we got it back to the hangar, the prop would turn only haltingly. You could feel grinding going on inside. First try at turning had it come up hard and stop. More fooling with it and it gradually came looser and would turn. Really looked like something came loose in there. Pulled a plug from each rotor and did a compression test. Rotor 1 was 80-80-80. Rotor 2 was 2-2-2. More proof that something had come loose. With that evidence, the insurance company allowed me to remove the engine for inspection. What I found was a pile of ground up ceramic junk. All the seals were still fine. Lots of time went in to finding where that stuff came from. Went through every inch of the induction system. Finally Jason Hutchison (my other on-airport rotary guy) broke the code. While the RV was standing on it's nose, this crap from my burned-out Hushpower II ran back up the manifold and in the exhaust port. That is what was grinding. Crap. Now the entire thing is off the firewall including the engine mount. All the wiring is disconnected (did not find anything loose or missing). I spent the morning looking under the panel for any loose or broken wiring, but found none. When I get the EC-2 out, Jason wants to plug it into his plane and we'll do the plugs and injectors test. If that checks out, Tracy, it is coming to you for a good look. I don't know what else to check. The engine quit just like somebody reached over and turned off the ignition. No stumble, no hiccup, just instant silence. I honestly do not know if the prop was turning or not. I suspect not, due to the silence and the fact that one blade is untouched. As you can see from the photos, there was something going on with Rotor 1. Wear is apparent down stream from the plug holes and all 3 apex seals are starting to chip in the center. There is quite a lot of carbon also on the rotors after 170 hours. Going forward, I have decided to look at resale value for if/when my RV-12 days arrive. This means putting a (gasp) IO-360 on it. The rotary has given me a safe 10-year run (til now, of course), so I have no regrets, but this is an opportunity to make some changes, and parts are already on the way. I will still be hanging out at the engine tent at S-n-F and wherever else gatherings happen. Hope to be flying by the first of next year.... I'm sure some of you will have suggestions about what might have gone wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, but bear in mind I am just looking at a pile of parts and wires at this point. Both fuel pumps were on, tanks were over half full, crank angle sensor worked fine. Guess it's obvious that I now have a RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor (Ed's), Felix 68/72 and Props Inc 68/72 wood props and LOTS of engine parts (my whole 14-year stash) available! And priced to sell! Bill Eslick RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A 750 Hours = --part1_3473b.e394e52.3b9e3176_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tracy,
We spent the day with Sam Hoskins in Marion Illinois at the Tandem Win= g=20 fly-in (Quickies) looking over his 0-200 engine with your system on it. He'= s=20 been quiet due to repairs he had been making on his airframe from an unrela= ted=20 incident and the plane is flying again, looking fine. He explained that he = had=20 issues with his CAS though he thought he had made a beefy mount for it that= it=20 was still not strong enough. He had added some bracing to it and improved t= hings=20 quite a bit. There was a second Quickie also with your EFI/ignition system = on an=20 0-200. Both were very happy with their RWS systems.
Sam's installation had an automotive aftermarket throttle body on it w= ith=20 an angled bung for another fuel injector where he inserted a single huge Bo= sch=20 injector hooked up to channel B for a limp home mode.
 
Chrissi &=20 Randi
www.CozyGirrrl.com
C= G=20 Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop=
 
In a message dated 9/10/2011 9:09:53 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 rwstracy@gmail.com writes:
=
I agree that it sounds like electrons Bobby.   An open CAS woul= d=20 cause instant shutdown but I've never heard of a Mazda CAS going bad.=20  Have had reports of bad Subaru CAS's. 

BTW, apologies for the confusion about your fuel system.   I wa= s=20 confusing you with Sam Hoskins who also had a recent power failure.  = ;His=20 sounded like fuel system problem but no further word from him.

Tracy Crook 

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 3, 2011, at 9:08 AM, "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:

<= /DIV>
What was the system voltage during run up? At what voltage does th= e EC2=20 shutdown?  Not a likely candidate.

What happens when the CAS circuit goes open? Does the EC2 stop=20 firing? 

Will a exhaust blockage of ?% stop the engine completely? Steve's= =20 testing showed a partial blockage has a major effect on power. Bill's= =20 muffler had to be full of crud for that much to end up back in the engi= ne.=20 If the HP2 lower cone was partly intact and came loose then a major blo= ckage=20 is very possible. It would trap all the little pieces that had been=20 collecting in the muffler. My first HP had large chunks of cone still i= ntact=20 along with all the little pieces. My second HP seemed more intact when = my=20 incident occurred. Meaning less large chunks appeared to be loose but p= lenty=20 of the small crud. The outlet cone was loose but more intact. I had hop= ed=20 that moving the second muffler to the belly would extend it's life but = it=20 didn't. In fact it may be more dangerous since the small pieces can't b= e=20 discharged as easily. My under cowl muffler was mounted at a downward a= ngle.=20 Belly mount is almost flat. 

I agree Ed that electrons seem to be the most logical cause but ma= y be=20 impossible to validate. 


Bobby





Sent from my iPad

On Sep 3, 2011, at 10:20 AM, "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com= >=20 wrote:

We still don't know (and may never),the cause= s,=20  but Sam's and Bills incidents based on initial information woul= d=20 appear to me to be two different causes. 
 
 Sam's engine kept running - althou= gh=20 sputtering and producing no power - this to me sounds like a fuel rel= ated=20 problem (possibly vapor lock, possibly something else - could be muff= ler=20 blockage).  Bill's on the other hand quit suddenly and without a= ny=20 warning - that to me sounds more like an electrical problem - either = the=20 firing pulses to the injector stopped or the spark stopped. =20
 
If I were Bill, I would use the EC2's diagnos= tic=20 modes to check out each circuit - if one doesn't check out then that = is=20 probably the answer.  If both check OK then  more head=20 scratching.
 
Ed

From: Bobb= y J.=20 Hughes
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 9:43 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad=20 news......

Bill,

I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad you weren't injured.= I=20 don't know at what percentage of exhaust blockage the engine would st= op=20 running. Also no reports on the condition of Sam's HP2 muffler. Three= =20 aircraft experiencing very similar problems this year is too many. If= you=20 have  leading / trailing plugs and primary / secondary injectors= on=20 separate power feeds then it should have kept running. That leaves fu= el=20 delivery (vapor lock), CAS circuit, Controller power, A side computer= =20 issue or muffler? I believe Sam did switch controllers during his=20 incident. I didn't and had plenty of time to do so. It's now the seco= nd=20 item in my emergency flow. 

One common item can be eliminated be removing any muffler that h= as=20 packing. Especially Hushpower 2 since they are common to all three=20 incidents. I'm assuming Sam's muffler also had loose=20 internals. 

Bobby






Sent from my iPad

On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" <= = wgeslick@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

= I have=20 been holding up reporting this until all the facts are in, but that= =20 might never happen, so here we go.

Good news:  No injuries.&= nbsp;=20

Bad news:  I have some work to do.

Photos at:&n= bsp;=20 http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101

On August 16th = at 10 AM,=20 I lined up for takeoff at my home airport (3600' paved) into a 5 kn= ot=20 headwind.  I had just finished changing the oil and filter and= =20 plugs.  Run-up was fine, so off I went.  Approximately=20 mid-field, and a couple of hundred feet in the air, it suddenly and= =20 without any warning became very silent.

Hit the big switch w= hich=20 puts direct battery power to everything engine, but no noise. = No=20 more time.  At this point flying the machine becomes THE=20 priority.  Dropped the nose and was amazed to see a little bit= of=20 runway under the nose!  I had fully expected to land in trees,= =20 houses or the river, so I dove what seemed like straight down to ca= pture=20 as much runway as possible while (somehow) holding the electric fla= p=20 switch long enough to get full flaps (noticed this later).  Pu= lled=20 probably my best round-out ever - no bounce.  Brakes to max an= d=20 tail up for weight.  I think my sub-concious put it all the wa= y on=20 the nose to try to prevent going through the fence and down the=20 hill.  Wheel skid starts about 200 feet from the stopping=20 point.  Skid marks from the wheel pants, cowling and prop run = about=20 the last 50 feet.  It stopped nose down just off the end. = ; The=20 tail was still over pavement.  Pushed the slider canopy UPHILL= ,=20 stepped out and down.  Noticed that I was not even scared by t= he=20 whole event.  Interesting.  Never even considered trying = to=20 turn around.  Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid=20 off. 

More good news.  No FAA or NTSB as it was a= =20 non-reportable incident.  Didn't even bend the gear legs. = ;=20 Also, my neighbor crashed in a Challenger about 10 minutes earlier = at=20 the city airport about 10 miles away.  The police and rescue t= ypes=20 were headed that way (they had injuries) and were not interested in= my=20 minor mishap.

As for the engine.  When we got it back t= o the=20 hangar, the prop would turn only haltingly.  You could feel=20 grinding going on inside.  First try at turning had it come up= hard=20 and stop.  More fooling with it and it gradually came looser a= nd=20 would turn.  Really looked like something came loose in=20 there.  Pulled a plug from each rotor and did a compression=20 test.  Rotor 1 was 80-80-80.  Rotor 2 was 2-2-2.  Mo= re=20 proof that something had come loose.  With that evidence, the= =20 insurance company allowed me to remove the engine for inspection.&n= bsp;=20 What I found was a pile of ground up ceramic junk.  All the se= als=20 were still fine.  Lots of time went in to finding where that s= tuff=20 came from.  Went through every inch of the induction system.&n= bsp;=20 Finally Jason Hutchison (my other on-airport rotary guy) broke the= =20 code.  While the RV was standing on it's nose, this crap from = my=20 burned-out Hushpower II ran back up the manifold and in the exhaust= =20 port.  That is what was grinding.  Crap.  Now the en= tire=20 thing is off the firewall including the engine mount.  All the= =20 wiring is disconnected (did not find anything loose or missing).&nb= sp; I=20 spent the morning looking under the panel for any loose or broken= =20 wiring, but found none.  When I get the EC-2 out, Jason wants = to=20 plug it into his plane and we'll do the plugs and injectors test.&n= bsp;=20 If that checks out, Tracy, it is coming to you for a good look.&nbs= p; I=20 don't know what else to check.  The engine quit just like some= body=20 reached over and turned off the ignition.  No stumble, no hicc= up,=20 just instant silence.  I honestly do not know if the prop was= =20 turning or not.  I suspect not, due to the silence and the fac= t=20 that one blade is untouched.

As you can see from the photos,= =20 there was something going on with Rotor 1.  Wear is apparent d= own=20 stream from the plug holes and all 3 apex seals are starting to chi= p in=20 the center.  There is quite a lot of carbon also on the rotors= =20 after 170 hours.

Going forward, I have decided to look at re= sale=20 value for if/when my RV-12 days arrive.  This means putting a= =20 (gasp) IO-360 on it.  The rotary has given me a safe 10-year r= un=20 (til now, of course), so I have no regrets, but this is an opportun= ity=20 to make some changes, and parts are already on the way.  I wil= l=20 still be hanging out at the engine tent at S-n-F and wherever else= =20 gatherings happen.  Hope to be flying by the first of next=20 year....

I'm sure some of you will have suggestions about wh= at=20 might have gone wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, but b= ear=20 in mind I am just looking at a pile of parts and wires at this=20 point.  Both fuel pumps were on, tanks were over half full, cr= ank=20 angle sensor worked fine.

Guess it's obvious that I now have= a=20 RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor (Ed's),  Felix 68/72 and Props Inc 68= /72=20 wood props and LOTS of engine parts (my whole 14-year stash)=20 available!  And priced to sell!

B= ill=20 Eslick
RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A
750=20 Hours



=
=3D
<= /DIV> --part1_3473b.e394e52.3b9e3176_boundary--