X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm7-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.116] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5099041 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:00:07 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.116; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.100] by nm7.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 14:59:31 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.80] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 14:59:31 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1017.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 14:59:31 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 606090.59948.bm@omp1017.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 97419 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Aug 2011 14:59:31 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1313938771; bh=xg/mEr8f/eUADkRlMC7Vq/JtGN0YZ7l/47EsFo+OvfQ=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=MPcsLmdkC+l9cMcqYgEd2O3bV76xmMsCCPywAG7CHoDctO8IZybeZSTmB7xOW6JJuNs0iifsPLR0FWhX/9ExDyFTP00J6PtNMh1KtM3ngZ1UAaIV8IUPOOFtXIvOFwdvZ9MHoooll1onZNBTLanhYsjf/9Fm0ogl1JrFC+TTgTw= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=IEu16suNMnawPkQFA3L2ki/DyhWAp77aYCrqscYaNanuoHkcz5Osgati2cryzeENvprPmAJ7FSb63q4JrkuF5vqnipXAzy5cjA2cpSAvi6d9xiXkWcJtptDGyBzPoEsGfUMOTygwFwRa2tnTQNby3GNZdCTNdHf9aZEEXIiQPDo=; X-YMail-OSG: MZ3j8n0VM1mNux0Mf_0xptH6Sx5L6WKAZYvoC7kVcSoGFQR lbOO0vBVh6IfnfBiLebQxCUSsqacV4grxdH5wwuQ3qGw7Zvlc0NEtHuiCVck gZbnoA0UfT1iBDSfKaFgWE.1dARts4BsMmtwRRT1FwN2Y1vvzlUXacqI7Ymi tlMhDZ8i_MrVV0E0mB8hQPaq7ZBN8t1NFLoShizyf64Dq6codX8_Fre.Fz2W 72wgIOvorWGZ.OTKCIFX6Ohn1Pd.ZwBSUIQMNMXY2nS_by6zF_7FAZQgOqgc uJMMDMqJ2hwLnnkqfXXVtvflV2dmZ5SgA19527EXnNRRs4tV9DcdhVYmyKnn 55wLlttYfAgb6QKcdrO.8Uu_4UMDC.vHdfFVHZWSPgbDrCOS9L61fsScSW_8 6YXNcTE98yuhneel82G23_MeVuiyzIQkA0foQ2bH4fFxATb_qMhDx13YH0y. nFWHcHeVbLz2xQ5AwgEm9Mmog5Ayg5j0MOJ0vWcWmh.FYKwDD3zCXA0nVfFp 3nMPnxFdUXBSIjfqq Received: from [208.114.45.3] by web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 07:59:31 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: Message-ID: <1313938771.1049.YahooMailNeo@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 07:59:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Oil Pressure Survey (was oil premix data) To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-116885605-1313938771=:1049" --0-116885605-1313938771=:1049 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed,=0A=A0What is your hose size ?...........I might add for those that resp= ond to include =0Ahose size plus if pressure measurement is taken before or= after oil filter and=0Acooler.............=0A=A0=0AThanks,=0A=0AKelly Troy= er=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/= EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFr= om: Ed Anderson =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft= =0ASent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 9:41 AM=0ASu= bject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request=0A=0A=0A=A0I have= a 13B block with eccentric shaft jets and remote oil filter.=A0 Above 5000= rpm my pressure is 70 psi at propeller end after oil cooler and filter=0A= =A0=0AIdle pressure is around 30-35 psi and climbs to 50 psi above 3500 rpm= =0A=A0=0AEd=0A=A0=0AEdward L. Anderson=0AAnderson Electronic Enterprises LL= C=0A305 Reefton Road=0AWeddington, NC 28104=0Ahttp://www.andersonee.com=0Ah= ttp://www.eicommander.com=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: Kelly Troyer =0ASent: Sunday, Au= gust 21, 2011 10:25 AM=0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASubject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request=0A=0AMight be interesting to hea= r from those flying what rpm it takes to see max oil =0Apressure...........= ..We have a multitude of oil system variations in the group and=0Awhere you= take your pressure measurement will have a direct bearing=A0 on the=0Arpm = needed for full pressure but if you take it from the far (propeller) end of= the=0Aengine like Tracy we should be somewhat on the same page as far as t= he RPM=0Aneeded for full pressure...............Everyone is lubing a redriv= e (RD1x for most)=0Aand some have the added lube requirements of eccentric = shaft jets and/or a=0ATurbocharger...............=0A=A0=0A=0AKelly Troyer= =0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM= 2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom= : Tracy =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:22 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request=0A=0A=0ATo give an actual exampl= e of what Lynn described, the 20B installation in my RV-8 is plumbed with -= 8 oil lines. =A0 The oil requirements of the 20B is of course 50% more than= the 13B and I still see full oil pressure at anything over 3800 rpm and I'= m measuring it at the far end of the oil galley in the engine. =A0 The only= measure I took to improve oil flow was to clean up the passages in the fro= nt housing oil passages near the oil pump.=0A=0AI did some measurements of = pressure drops through the system and did see that the lines and fittings w= ere dropping a significant amount of pressure so I am pushing the lower lim= it of hose size and anything less would be a mistake. =A0 I had some space = and routing issues that made -10 lines problematic, otherwise that's what I= would have used.=0A=0ATracy=0A=0A=0ASent from my iPad=0A=0AOn Aug 21, 2011= , at 1:37 AM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote:=0A=0A=0AThe oil pump produces a fixe= d volume tied to RPM. The output is a function of the total resistance to f= low of the system which is just about fixed, plus the pop setting of the re= lief valve, also fixed. =0A>=0A>So, if we do not include such things a visc= osity changes, foaming, temperature changes, suction side losses and all of= the things that cloud the issue,=0A>and just look at the flow, we see that= unless there has been a very small hose or gallery size selected, the hose= or gallery diameter and volume has no affect at all on pump output, total = resistance, or temperature. So the bigger the hoses, in effect the closer y= ou get to a static system where pressure is uniform everywhere. The one eff= ect of larger hoses we want is the lower velocity of the oil. Drag increase= s at the square of velocity, so a small increase in diameter reduces the ve= locity and drag and also the amount of heat the pump puts into the oil. =0A= >=0A>We are also adding some=A0length of hose in excess of the stock system= ,=A0with more remote filtering and ideal cooler locations and similar, so t= he larger hose diameter is of some benefit there. =0A>=0A>Suppose we have a= 200 foot long oil hose in 12" diameter, and another in 1/8" diameter. Both= are pressurized with the same size pump turning the same RPM. We have pres= sure gages at the opposite end next to the relief valve with the pop pressu= re set at 80 PSI. We also have pressure gages at the pump end. Assume both = volumes remain as at rest, what happens when we fire the pumps together?=0A= >=0A>The large diameter version, the pump builds to just above 80 PSI and t= he relieve valve pops at the far end about a second later holding the full = 80 PSI in the tube, and dumping excess oil with gusto.=0A>=0A>In the small = diameter version, the pump builds up 150 PSI, and 3 seconds later the relie= f valve pops at 80 PSI, but just dribbles oil. =0A>=0A>The larger system is= a nearly static situation, while the smaller system is a very dynamic situ= ation. =0A>=0A>Lynn E. Hanover=0A>=0A>No, I am not recommending 12" diamete= r oil hoses.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>In a message dated 8/20/2011 1:25:20 P.M. Parag= uay Standard Time, dale.rog@gmail.com writes:=0A>Kelly,=0A>>=0A>>=A0=A0 I k= now you asked Lynn, but ...=0A>>=0A>>Things to think about: the original oi= l system for the 13B was designed to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - o= ne to the main bearings and one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flyw= heel end) iron. Any volume of oil that exceeds the capacities of those path= s will result in excessive oil pressure.=A0 Going to an external pressure r= egulator will solve that problem, but to what purpose?=A0 For any given pre= ssure, going from a 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pumped; = going to a -10 (5/8") nearly triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than qua= druples it - you end up pumping a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to it - = then cooling it and returning it directly to the sump. =0A>>=0A>>So, how mu= ch oil flow do you need for your turbo and re-drive?=A0 As much as the engi= ne itself?=A0 I rather suspect that having larger than -10 up to the point = where the oil supply splits to service the various components won't buy you= any advantage except lower oil temps, and=A0 that is actually doubtful.=0A= >>=0A>>Dale_R=0A>>COZY MkIV #0497=0A>>=0A>> --0-116885605-1313938771=:1049 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed,
 What is your h= ose size ?...........I might add for those that respond to include <= /div>
hose size plus if pr= essure measurement is taken before or after oil filter and
cooler.............<= /SPAN>
 
Thanks,
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 9:41 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request<= BR>
 I have a 13B block with eccentric shaft jets = and remote oil filter.  Above 5000 rpm my pressure is 70 psi at propel= ler end after oil cooler and filter
 
Idle pressure is around 30-35 psi and climbs to 50 = psi above 3500 rpm
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterpris= es LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com<= /A>
http://www.eicommander.com

Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 10:25 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request

Might be interesting to hear from those flying what rpm it takes= to see max oil
pressure.............We have a multitude of oil system variation= s in the group and
where you take your pressure measurement will have a direct bear= ing  on the
rpm needed for full pressure but if you take it from the far (pr= opeller) end of the
engine like Tracy we should be somewhat on the same page as far = as the RPM
needed for full pressure...............Everyone is lubing a redr= ive (RD1x for most)
and some have the added lube requirements of eccentric shaft jet= s and/or a
Turbocharger...............=
 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Tracy <rwstracy@= gmail.com>
To: Rotary= motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:22 AM
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw= d: oil premix data; info request

To give an actual example of what Lynn described, the 20B installation= in my RV-8 is plumbed with -8 oil lines.   The oil requirements of th= e 20B is of course 50% more than the 13B and I still see full oil pressure = at anything over 3800 rpm and I'm measuring it at the far end of the oil ga= lley in the engine.   The only measure I took to improve oil flow was = to clean up the passages in the front housing oil passages near the oil pum= p.

I did some measurements of pressure drops through the system and did s= ee that the lines and fittings were dropping a significant amount of pressu= re so I am pushing the lower limit of hose size and anything less would be = a mistake.   I had some space and routing issues that made -10 lines p= roblematic, otherwise that's what I would have used.

Tracy


Sent from my iPad

On Aug 21, 2011, at 1:37 AM, Lehanov= er@aol.com wrote:

The oil pump produces a fixed volume tied to RPM. The output is a func= tion of the total resistance to flow of the system which is just about fixe= d, plus the pop setting of the relief valve, also fixed.
 
So, if we do not include such things a viscosity changes, foaming, tem= perature changes, suction side losses and all of the things that cloud the = issue,
and just look at the flow, we see that unless there has been a very sm= all hose or gallery size selected, the hose or gallery diameter and volume = has no affect at all on pump output, total resistance, or temperature. So t= he bigger the hoses, in effect the closer you get to a static system where = pressure is uniform everywhere. The one effect of larger hoses we want is t= he lower velocity of the oil. Drag increases at the square of velocity, so = a small increase in diameter reduces the velocity and drag and also the amo= unt of heat the pump puts into the oil.
 
We are also adding some length of hose in excess of the stock sys= tem, with more remote filtering and ideal cooler locations and similar= , so the larger hose diameter is of some benefit there.
 
Suppose we have a 200 foot long oil hose in 12" diameter, and another = in 1/8" diameter. Both are pressurized with the same size pump turning the = same RPM. We have pressure gages at the opposite end next to the relief val= ve with the pop pressure set at 80 PSI. We also have pressure gages at the = pump end. Assume both volumes remain as at rest, what happens when we fire = the pumps together?
 
The large diameter version, the pump builds to just above 80 PSI and t= he relieve valve pops at the far end about a second later holding the full = 80 PSI in the tube, and dumping excess oil with gusto.
 
In the small diameter version, the pump builds up 150 PSI, and 3 secon= ds later the relief valve pops at 80 PSI, but just dribbles oil.
 
The larger system is a nearly static situation, while the smaller syst= em is a very dynamic situation.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
No, I am not recommending 12" diameter oil hoses.
 
 
 
In a message dated 8/20/2011 1:25:20 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, dale.rog@gmail.com writes:
Kelly,

   I know you asked Lynn, but = ...

Things to think about: the original oil system for the 13B was d= esigned to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main bearings an= d one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. Any volume= of oil that exceeds the capacities of those paths will result in excessive= oil pressure.  Going to an external pressure regulator will solve tha= t problem, but to what purpose?  For any given pressure, going from a = 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pumped; going to a -10 (5/8"= ) nearly triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples it - you end= up pumping a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling it and = returning it directly to the sump.

So, how much oil flow do you nee= d for your turbo and re-drive?  As much as the engine itself?  I r= ather suspect that having larger than -10 up to the point where the oil sup= ply splits to service the various components won't buy you any advantage ex= cept lower oil temps, and  that is actually doubtful.

Dale_RCOZY MkIV #0497





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