X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5099029 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:43:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=SOlsIBN44tkg4MqIq+y2aLZdhoA3kHpmiRsLue6rfnM= c=1 sm=0 a=YzYZRL76Q3QA:10 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:17 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=r1ClD_H3AAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=nY_aO3qArcDm4R_taEQA:9 a=uAWdD-xQlyzx_qc6TBcA:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=YSIBkC7kC80ScVjp:21 a=s3yCkEK2CcjD9nWs:21 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=1tZzlOglbKT3XLRJWBsA:9 a=MFO7rrYV5TgtrwyXBTEA:7 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.175.135 Received: from [174.110.175.135] ([174.110.175.135:58799] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 35/62-15242-B79115E4; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:43:07 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:41:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01CC5FEE.E007E250" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01CC5FEE.E007E250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a 13B block with eccentric shaft jets and remote oil filter. = Above 5000 rpm my pressure is 70 psi at propeller end after oil cooler = and filter Idle pressure is around 30-35 psi and climbs to 50 psi above 3500 rpm Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Kelly Troyer=20 Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 10:25 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request Might be interesting to hear from those flying what rpm it takes to see = max oil=20 pressure.............We have a multitude of oil system variations in the = group and where you take your pressure measurement will have a direct bearing on = the rpm needed for full pressure but if you take it from the far (propeller) = end of the engine like Tracy we should be somewhat on the same page as far as the = RPM needed for full pressure...............Everyone is lubing a redrive = (RD1x for most) and some have the added lube requirements of eccentric shaft jets and/or = a Turbocharger............... Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request To give an actual example of what Lynn described, the 20B installation = in my RV-8 is plumbed with -8 oil lines. The oil requirements of the = 20B is of course 50% more than the 13B and I still see full oil pressure = at anything over 3800 rpm and I'm measuring it at the far end of the oil = galley in the engine. The only measure I took to improve oil flow was = to clean up the passages in the front housing oil passages near the oil = pump. I did some measurements of pressure drops through the system and did see = that the lines and fittings were dropping a significant amount of = pressure so I am pushing the lower limit of hose size and anything less = would be a mistake. I had some space and routing issues that made -10 = lines problematic, otherwise that's what I would have used. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 21, 2011, at 1:37 AM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote: The oil pump produces a fixed volume tied to RPM. The output is a = function of the total resistance to flow of the system which is just = about fixed, plus the pop setting of the relief valve, also fixed.=20 So, if we do not include such things a viscosity changes, foaming, = temperature changes, suction side losses and all of the things that = cloud the issue, and just look at the flow, we see that unless there has been a very = small hose or gallery size selected, the hose or gallery diameter and = volume has no affect at all on pump output, total resistance, or = temperature. So the bigger the hoses, in effect the closer you get to a = static system where pressure is uniform everywhere. The one effect of = larger hoses we want is the lower velocity of the oil. Drag increases at = the square of velocity, so a small increase in diameter reduces the = velocity and drag and also the amount of heat the pump puts into the = oil.=20 We are also adding some length of hose in excess of the stock system, = with more remote filtering and ideal cooler locations and similar, so = the larger hose diameter is of some benefit there.=20 Suppose we have a 200 foot long oil hose in 12" diameter, and another = in 1/8" diameter. Both are pressurized with the same size pump turning = the same RPM. We have pressure gages at the opposite end next to the = relief valve with the pop pressure set at 80 PSI. We also have pressure = gages at the pump end. Assume both volumes remain as at rest, what = happens when we fire the pumps together? The large diameter version, the pump builds to just above 80 PSI and = the relieve valve pops at the far end about a second later holding the = full 80 PSI in the tube, and dumping excess oil with gusto. In the small diameter version, the pump builds up 150 PSI, and 3 = seconds later the relief valve pops at 80 PSI, but just dribbles oil.=20 The larger system is a nearly static situation, while the smaller = system is a very dynamic situation.=20 Lynn E. Hanover No, I am not recommending 12" diameter oil hoses. In a message dated 8/20/2011 1:25:20 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, = dale.rog@gmail.com writes: Kelly, I know you asked Lynn, but ... Things to think about: the original oil system for the 13B was = designed to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main = bearings and one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) = iron. Any volume of oil that exceeds the capacities of those paths will = result in excessive oil pressure. Going to an external pressure = regulator will solve that problem, but to what purpose? For any given = pressure, going from a 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being = pumped; going to a -10 (5/8") nearly triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") = more than quadruples it - you end up pumping a lot of oil - thereby = adding heat to it - then cooling it and returning it directly to the = sump.=20 So, how much oil flow do you need for your turbo and re-drive? As = much as the engine itself? I rather suspect that having larger than -10 = up to the point where the oil supply splits to service the various = components won't buy you any advantage except lower oil temps, and that = is actually doubtful. Dale_R COZY MkIV #0497 ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01CC5FEE.E007E250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 I have a 13B block with eccentric shaft = jets and=20 remote oil filter.  Above 5000 rpm my pressure is 70 psi at = propeller end=20 after oil cooler and filter
 
Idle pressure is around 30-35 psi and climbs to = 50 psi=20 above 3500 rpm
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic = Enterprises=20 LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com

Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 10:25 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info=20 request

Might be = interesting to hear=20 from those flying what rpm it takes to see max oil
pressure.............We have=20 a multitude of oil system variations in the group and
where you take = your pressure=20 measurement will have a direct bearing  on the
rpm needed for = full pressure=20 but if you take it from the far (propeller) end of the
engine like Tracy = we should=20 be somewhat on the same page as far as the RPM
needed for full=20 pressure...............Everyone is lubing a redrive (RD1x for = most)
and some have the = added lube=20 requirements of eccentric shaft jets and/or a
Turbocharger...............
 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ = Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=20 Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Tracy=20 <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 = 7:22=20 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Fwd: oil premix data; info request

To give an actual example of what Lynn described, the 20B = installation in=20 my RV-8 is plumbed with -8 oil lines.   The oil requirements of the = 20B is=20 of course 50% more than the 13B and I still see full oil pressure at = anything=20 over 3800 rpm and I'm measuring it at the far end of the oil galley in = the=20 engine.   The only measure I took to improve oil flow was to clean = up the=20 passages in the front housing oil passages near the oil pump.

I did some measurements of pressure drops through the system and = did see=20 that the lines and fittings were dropping a significant amount of = pressure so I=20 am pushing the lower limit of hose size and anything less would be a = mistake.=20   I had some space and routing issues that made -10 lines = problematic,=20 otherwise that's what I would have used.

Tracy


Sent from my iPad

On Aug 21, 2011, at 1:37 AM, Lehanover@aol.com = wrote:

The oil pump produces a fixed volume tied to RPM. The output is a = function of the total resistance to flow of the system which is just = about=20 fixed, plus the pop setting of the relief valve, also fixed.
 
So, if we do not include such things a viscosity changes, = foaming,=20 temperature changes, suction side losses and all of the things that = cloud the=20 issue,
and just look at the flow, we see that unless there has been a = very small=20 hose or gallery size selected, the hose or gallery diameter and volume = has no=20 affect at all on pump output, total resistance, or temperature. So the = bigger=20 the hoses, in effect the closer you get to a static system where = pressure is=20 uniform everywhere. The one effect of larger hoses we want is the = lower=20 velocity of the oil. Drag increases at the square of velocity, so a = small=20 increase in diameter reduces the velocity and drag and also the amount = of heat=20 the pump puts into the oil.
 
We are also adding some length of hose in excess of the = stock=20 system, with more remote filtering and ideal cooler locations and = similar, so the larger hose diameter is of some benefit there.
 
Suppose we have a 200 foot long oil hose in 12" diameter, and = another in=20 1/8" diameter. Both are pressurized with the same size pump turning = the same=20 RPM. We have pressure gages at the opposite end next to the relief = valve with=20 the pop pressure set at 80 PSI. We also have pressure gages at the = pump end.=20 Assume both volumes remain as at rest, what happens when we fire the = pumps=20 together?
 
The large diameter version, the pump builds to just above 80 PSI = and the=20 relieve valve pops at the far end about a second later holding the = full 80 PSI=20 in the tube, and dumping excess oil with gusto.
 
In the small diameter version, the pump builds up 150 PSI, and 3 = seconds=20 later the relief valve pops at 80 PSI, but just dribbles oil.
 
The larger system is a nearly static situation, while the smaller = system=20 is a very dynamic situation.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
No, I am not recommending 12" diameter oil hoses.
 
 
 
In a message dated 8/20/2011 1:25:20 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, = dale.rog@gmail.com = writes:
Kelly,

   I know you asked Lynn, but=20 ...

Things to think about: the original oil system for the = 13B was=20 designed to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main = bearings=20 and one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. = Any=20 volume of oil that exceeds the capacities of those paths will result = in=20 excessive oil pressure.  Going to an external pressure = regulator will=20 solve that problem, but to what purpose?  For any given = pressure, going=20 from a 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pumped; going = to a -10=20 (5/8") nearly triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples = it - you=20 end up pumping a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to it - then = cooling it=20 and returning it directly to the sump.

So, how much oil flow = do you=20 need for your turbo and re-drive?  As much as the engine = itself? =20 I rather suspect that having larger than -10 up to the point where = the oil=20 supply splits to service the various components won't buy you any = advantage=20 except lower oil temps, and  that is actually=20 doubtful.

Dale_R
COZY MkIV=20 = #0497


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