X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.150] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5099023 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:26:18 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.150; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.100] by nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 14:25:42 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.91] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 14:25:42 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1028.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2011 14:25:41 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 994319.32766.bm@omp1028.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 86385 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Aug 2011 14:25:41 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1313936741; bh=wEufbYWKiOAP6FShDM06oSH/TUWXmC6i1yY6zT5eXIk=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=o31uc1If5hC/Ndcsto0vVCgnZMh349wP+IAxJ9l2hV8ujKB+HiAA8lzB5xeWieQdj3qYpDF6hHwbKdcsi20B0Ldz1KOHyAqGd17zuumFTRAA0hCbtJVaz/afumdkijIUi+Yn9tn2dwu3ZMY6cixwUMWOpUv3i7oNPJqm9ihqWIs= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mLkzfHmQF/jMb9nC/4tLQSJW5hyK2Eni7xMx7LP9iF/vj+dmZg3G9JOQM2E1G+ZBL9WcaiKwRBlYgQ5j+MuNUQhoc6c0AR4TSIN3eaxiRZY0y1mCUyjNE/jeC8pfG+Q12p+6lpoQib5In1JvQYSfGZ9KbDdeuaPKvFRPK5wuMx4=; X-YMail-OSG: .rs2..MVM1mGhjN9BlX4RQblT7ecqPK0PnHOvpr5VIqIn.D YFsysddxaTty_su_C74Adh_gdu7gx1rue_E19nQ8SOEYjjzn3JtAaTtHUl.A RAdTjoJb4CjZES7tUP0pcE7aweg4hkYXK_JqlEx2oyXnVcio1a89695JJ4ra EyxWtCmBFG3R8Fy4hw9C0kLckIQuZvSGC4J_oWjQ7CX5m98oljVmUE6ngSlP c94T5T.jWLHKX6RQrF9DL0Ds7dlWgD3HlHtiVJ0QF8wxN2zY8_d1SeWvnRPz WbjuTxJ2oNLFQ8Vgn2wiB.GmRLaOc.Ca1oInzIjl3bsUKqNM.aZit.l7UwKU vgjTj515uRIhw2LaDSchaHwjBzjqPBqle5cQ0sE7Fy9.kUnwwCxX2ar4aFbY kGSAUn33Waw8- Received: from [208.114.45.3] by web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 21 Aug 2011 07:25:41 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: Message-ID: <1313936741.87118.YahooMailNeo@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 07:25:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1909453093-1313936741=:87118" --0-1909453093-1313936741=:87118 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Might be interesting to hear from those flying what rpm it takes to see max= oil =0Apressure.............We have a multitude of oil system variations i= n the group and=0Awhere you take your pressure measurement will have a dire= ct bearing=A0 on the=0Arpm needed for full pressure but if you take it from= the far (propeller) end of the=0Aengine like Tracy we should be somewhat o= n the same page as far as the RPM=0Aneeded for full pressure...............= Everyone is lubing a redrive (RD1x for most)=0Aand some have the added lube= requirements of eccentric shaft jets and/or a=0ATurbocharger..............= .=0A=A0=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ E= ngine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETIC= S"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Tracy =0ATo: Rotary motors i= n aircraft =0ASent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:= 22 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request=0A=0A= =0ATo give an actual example of what Lynn described, the 20B installation i= n my RV-8 is plumbed with -8 oil lines. =A0 The oil requirements of the 20B= is of course 50% more than the 13B and I still see full oil pressure at an= ything over 3800 rpm and I'm measuring it at the far end of the oil galley = in the engine. =A0 The only measure I took to improve oil flow was to clean= up the passages in the front housing oil passages near the oil pump.=0A=0A= I did some measurements of pressure drops through the system and did see th= at the lines and fittings were dropping a significant amount of pressure so= I am pushing the lower limit of hose size and anything less would be a mis= take. =A0 I had some space and routing issues that made -10 lines problemat= ic, otherwise that's what I would have used.=0A=0ATracy=0A=0A=0ASent from m= y iPad=0A=0AOn Aug 21, 2011, at 1:37 AM, Lehanover@aol.com wrote:=0A=0A=0AT= he oil pump produces a fixed volume tied to RPM. The output is a function o= f the total resistance to flow of the system which is just about fixed, plu= s the pop setting of the relief valve, also fixed. =0A>=0A>So, if we do not= include such things a viscosity changes, foaming, temperature changes, suc= tion side losses and all of the things that cloud the issue,=0A>and just lo= ok at the flow, we see that unless there has been a very small hose or gall= ery size selected, the hose or gallery diameter and volume has no affect at= all on pump output, total resistance, or temperature. So the bigger the ho= ses, in effect the closer you get to a static system where pressure is unif= orm everywhere. The one effect of larger hoses we want is the lower velocit= y of the oil. Drag increases at the square of velocity, so a small increase= in diameter reduces the velocity and drag and also the amount of heat the = pump puts into the oil. =0A>=0A>We are also adding some=A0length of hose in= excess of the stock system,=A0with more remote filtering and ideal cooler = locations and similar, so the larger hose diameter is of some benefit there= . =0A>=0A>Suppose we have a 200 foot long oil hose in 12" diameter, and ano= ther in 1/8" diameter. Both are pressurized with the same size pump turning= the same RPM. We have pressure gages at the opposite end next to the relie= f valve with the pop pressure set at 80 PSI. We also have pressure gages at= the pump end. Assume both volumes remain as at rest, what happens when we = fire the pumps together?=0A>=0A>The large diameter version, the pump builds= to just above 80 PSI and the relieve valve pops at the far end about a sec= ond later holding the full 80 PSI in the tube, and dumping excess oil with = gusto.=0A>=0A>In the small diameter version, the pump builds up 150 PSI, an= d 3 seconds later the relief valve pops at 80 PSI, but just dribbles oil. = =0A>=0A>The larger system is a nearly static situation, while the smaller s= ystem is a very dynamic situation. =0A>=0A>Lynn E. Hanover=0A>=0A>No, I am = not recommending 12" diameter oil hoses.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>In a message dated = 8/20/2011 1:25:20 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, dale.rog@gmail.com writes:= =0A>Kelly,=0A>>=0A>>=A0=A0 I know you asked Lynn, but ...=0A>>=0A>>Things t= o think about: the original oil system for the 13B was designed to support = two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main bearings and one to the pressu= re regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. Any volume of oil that exceed= s the capacities of those paths will result in excessive oil pressure.=A0 G= oing to an external pressure regulator will solve that problem, but to what= purpose?=A0 For any given pressure, going from a 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77= % to the volume being pumped; going to a -10 (5/8") nearly triples the oil = flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples it - you end up pumping a lot of oil = - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling it and returning it directly to = the sump. =0A>>=0A>>So, how much oil flow do you need for your turbo and re= -drive?=A0 As much as the engine itself?=A0 I rather suspect that having la= rger than -10 up to the point where the oil supply splits to service the va= rious components won't buy you any advantage except lower oil temps, and=A0= that is actually doubtful.=0A>>=0A>>Dale_R=0A>>COZY MkIV #0497=0A>>=0A>> --0-1909453093-1313936741=:87118 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Might be interesting to hear from those flying what = rpm it takes to see max oil
pressure............= .We have a multitude of oil system variations in the group and
where you take your = pressure measurement will have a direct bearing  on the
rpm needed for full = pressure but if you take it from the far (propeller) end of the
engine like Tracy we= should be somewhat on the same page as far as the RPM
needed for full pres= sure...............Everyone is lubing a redrive (RD1x for most)
and some have the ad= ded lube requirements of eccentric shaft jets and/or a
Turbocharger........= .......
 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironl= ine.net>
Sent: Sunday= , August 21, 2011 7:22 AM
Subject:<= /SPAN> [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request
To give an actual example of what Lynn described, the 20B installation= in my RV-8 is plumbed with -8 oil lines.   The oil requirements of th= e 20B is of course 50% more than the 13B and I still see full oil pressure = at anything over 3800 rpm and I'm measuring it at the far end of the oil ga= lley in the engine.   The only measure I took to improve oil flow was = to clean up the passages in the front housing oil passages near the oil pum= p.

I did some measurements of pressure drops through the system and did s= ee that the lines and fittings were dropping a significant amount of pressu= re so I am pushing the lower limit of hose size and anything less would be = a mistake.   I had some space and routing issues that made -10 lines p= roblematic, otherwise that's what I would have used.

Tracy


Sent from my iPad

On Aug 21, 2011, at 1:37 AM, Lehanov= er@aol.com wrote:

The oil pump produces a fixed volume tied to RPM. The output is a func= tion of the total resistance to flow of the system which is just about fixe= d, plus the pop setting of the relief valve, also fixed.
 
So, if we do not include such things a viscosity changes, foaming, tem= perature changes, suction side losses and all of the things that cloud the = issue,
and just look at the flow, we see that unless there has been a very sm= all hose or gallery size selected, the hose or gallery diameter and volume = has no affect at all on pump output, total resistance, or temperature. So t= he bigger the hoses, in effect the closer you get to a static system where = pressure is uniform everywhere. The one effect of larger hoses we want is t= he lower velocity of the oil. Drag increases at the square of velocity, so = a small increase in diameter reduces the velocity and drag and also the amo= unt of heat the pump puts into the oil.
 
We are also adding some length of hose in excess of the stock sys= tem, with more remote filtering and ideal cooler locations and similar= , so the larger hose diameter is of some benefit there.
 
Suppose we have a 200 foot long oil hose in 12" diameter, and another = in 1/8" diameter. Both are pressurized with the same size pump turning the = same RPM. We have pressure gages at the opposite end next to the relief val= ve with the pop pressure set at 80 PSI. We also have pressure gages at the = pump end. Assume both volumes remain as at rest, what happens when we fire = the pumps together?
 
The large diameter version, the pump builds to just above 80 PSI and t= he relieve valve pops at the far end about a second later holding the full = 80 PSI in the tube, and dumping excess oil with gusto.
 
In the small diameter version, the pump builds up 150 PSI, and 3 secon= ds later the relief valve pops at 80 PSI, but just dribbles oil.
 
The larger system is a nearly static situation, while the smaller syst= em is a very dynamic situation.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
No, I am not recommending 12" diameter oil hoses.
 
 
 
In a message dated 8/20/2011 1:25:20 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, dale.rog@gmail.com writes:
Kelly,

   I know you asked Lynn, but = ...

Things to think about: the original oil system for the 13B was d= esigned to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main bearings an= d one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. Any volume= of oil that exceeds the capacities of those paths will result in excessive= oil pressure.  Going to an external pressure regulator will solve tha= t problem, but to what purpose?  For any given pressure, going from a = 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pumped; going to a -10 (5/8"= ) nearly triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples it - you end= up pumping a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling it and = returning it directly to the sump.

So, how much oil flow do you nee= d for your turbo and re-drive?  As much as the engine itself?  I r= ather suspect that having larger than -10 up to the point where the oil sup= ply splits to service the various components won't buy you any advantage ex= cept lower oil temps, and  that is actually doubtful.

Dale_RCOZY MkIV #0497



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