X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm5-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.112] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5098571 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 16:41:27 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.112; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.99] by nm5.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2011 20:40:52 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.71] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2011 20:40:52 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1008.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2011 20:40:52 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 106621.6182.bm@omp1008.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 5210 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Aug 2011 20:40:51 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1313872851; bh=9Y311DfRt0+ZAekm93LYt82fYS2PINj1+SBJgRONgK4=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=gm2HYWQawp0jhBuBR7WYal6JGIHnxmN8hPxGgXxNPwYIvSVvcjtp5K/Yv6uf8FdKV20KJXVPCaEmhHGHsZdfQu8Zc1/DaftQj1g1oJ7UCUgt1B+Jdmi8iGqTNfOagdlq0jCITYJdC403ySzRFeG88+NgKgtTWzTCTmDsglWnFAU= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=BljMYJ4MzoeAFqCarTvP5KZgvgCSf/cTBvUCXS/oonqdyg+aD1EeTWzw5nrVxuO/zhInsv4RWpVcixXYOqU9vZLcrupN/sQUG7xU4nwLgXZrsmykLl+b8rHuiE1sJ31Hon6c5Ukt0H57XZoXUup7wEGdeXGWtneelP0gh41i/GQ=; X-YMail-OSG: mmBo7QYVM1nbeZ0QUtxxEiWaKDegjyk3MLWIlZ_OuG4VgVp c0Da4wSbo8fOENszqDTTvtqCBfxPoaKdpow97XSfcvAss_mY.NBnK2hq2eQa B3n7SZ53VaqX5kNLtsUtjgHQjlEBZcRXo5ZbMSDSHWCmNqPdohE81UvPWij3 uWcsE1KvKfNcvNIEZGd9WKwLjkFu14uphQ2jPtMrTQvEXDtRpPzYN4X_yPBH pci1M.XN8q.YgtiIH7CDTwqwKOSm_1dZV.zhEdc1qZM7.YQFeS1OnpQg9TC4 nsQSf3KuahQoGFUowhbbfynUF.9TVilUL71puwLGspTvRHMXNw6o5qlVfTV9 DTRxPRnqPmQj67PseSeamj2O30gbu3WVKF3N2JIFlk0r6iNYdd6mypaMI2N1 sPhkW6ZXEGIUoqw-- Received: from [208.114.46.104] by web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:40:51 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: Message-ID: <1313872851.4438.YahooMailNeo@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:40:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-386488707-1313872851=:4438" --0-386488707-1313872851=:4438 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dale,=0A=A0=A0 Forgot to add that oil will be taken directly out the side o= f the front iron hsg since=0A"Mistral" backplate has no provision for pump = output or front regulator=A0and the rear=0Ahsg regulator will be removed an= d pluged..............=A0=A0=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventual= ly)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil M= anifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0A----- Forwarded Message -----=0AF= rom: Kelly Troyer =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 2:53 PM=0ASubject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request=0A=0A=0ADale,=0A=A0=A0= =A0 All true and I realize -12 is severe overkill as far as the volume of o= il needed by=0Aa 13B.............My main objective is=A0the reduction of=A0= frictional loses (restriction) and=0Apossibly slightly lower oil temp using= oversize hose and a filter capable of 20 gpm=0Awith minimal pressure loss.= .........I will be lubing a Turbocharger plus the RD1C and=0Acooling the=A0= Rotors with 180 to 200 mm jets..........I will have added three additional= =0Alube jobs=A0(additional volume needed)=A0and additional heat=A0to an alr= eady stressed oil =0Asystem...........The external pressure regulator and b= ypass=A0just allows=A0me to adjust =0Apressure with out pulling the sump...= ..........The downside is the extra weight of=A0-12=A0=0Ahoses , regulator= =A0and an=A0oversize oil filter which I have not calculated yet but my oil = =0Asystem would have been basically the same even without larger hose and f= ilter...........=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Event= ually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oi= l Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Dale_R =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: S= aturday, August 20, 2011 12:24 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premi= x data; info request=0A=0A=0AKelly,=0A=0A=A0=A0 I know you asked Lynn, but = ...=0A=0AThings to think about: the original oil system for the 13B was des= igned to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main bearings and = one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. Any volume o= f oil that exceeds the capacities of those paths will result in excessive o= il pressure.=A0 Going to an external pressure regulator will solve that pro= blem, but to what purpose?=A0 For any given pressure, going from a 3/8" lin= e to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pumped; going to a -10 (5/8") nearly= triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples it - you end up pump= ing a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling it and returnin= g it directly to the sump. =0A=0ASo, how much oil flow do you need for your= turbo and re-drive?=A0 As much as the engine itself?=A0 I rather suspect t= hat having larger than -10 up to the point where the oil supply splits to s= ervice the various components won't buy you any advantage except lower oil = temps, and=A0 that is actually doubtful.=0A=0ADale_R=0ACOZY MkIV #0497=0A= =0A=0AOn 8/20/2011 8:58 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: =0ALynn,=0A>=A0=A0 I will b= e using -12 hose from engine pump outlet=A0to remote filter to cooler and t= o engine=0A>with a "Aviaid" external regulator with a -10 bypass directly t= o the sump (overkill I am sure=0A>but I want to reduce restriction as much = as possible)........My question would a single NAPA=0A>1515 or K&N filter f= lowing 9 gph put the restriction=A0I am trying to eliminate=A0back in......= ....?? =A0=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"= _ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURB= ONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>=0A>From: "Lehanover@aol.com" =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent:= Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:09 AM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil pr= emix data; info request=0A>=0A>=0A>Of the many things to think about is the= oiling system and pieces. =0A>=0A>That bypass valve that filter folks talk= about is not a valve at all. Most filter spin on cans have the elements pr= essed against the top cover =0A>(where the oil enters and leaves) by a spri= ng. Oil flows=A0into the can=A0(through the small holes=A0around the outsid= e) and exits through the big center hole. There is a seal between the outer= small holes and the inner big hole.=0A>=0A>When the element loads up with = dirt or bearing material, the pressure drop across the element forces the e= lement away from the top plate against a spring in the bottom of the can. T= hat spring is a real coil spring in good filters, and a flat (leaf) in chea= p filters like Fram.=0A>=0A>Where the can is mounted inverted, the heavy de= bris piles up around the plate end of the element. So when the element bypa= sses the oil can flow directly from the small holes to the big hole with no= filtration at all.=0A>And right there is all of that dying engine debris r= eady to go right back to the bearings.=A0=0A>=0A>Where the can is mounted w= ith the plate up, the heavy stuff is at the bottom of the can away from the= plate. May not sound like much until=0A>you arrive at over the trees at Po= dunk needing only=A02 seconds more power to clear that last tree and make t= he runway.=A0=0A>=0A>The remote mount is a weight penalty unless you needed= more nose weight anyway. But provides more latitude on location and cleara= nce. =0A>The inverted element tends to trap foamed oil at low engine speeds= , and save it as a dose of air and condensate for your next start up. =0A>= =0A>K&N filters have a 450 to 550 pound burst can and are used in most raci= ng classes. They cost just slightly more than a good street filter and are = available in any hot rod shop or mail order. =0A>=0A>The Frams that Racing = Beat suggests are really good filters, and I would be shocked to find that = Fram actually makes them. Those filters are way too big for aircraft use an= d very heavy when full of oil. The usual filter stand is built to fit the F= ram PH8A or Lee FL-1 Both Ford crosses from the 70s. =A0The center hole is = 3/4 x 16 thread.=0A>The NAPA 1515 also works just fine if you have a store = close by. =0A>About 9 GPM and 300 pound burst. =0A>=0A>The airplane engine = has a more severe duty cycle than a race car. It is =0A>load limited to abo= ut 6,500 RPM at wide open throttle. So the heat is constant and high. The r= acer has long periods of closed throttle and even though the RPM=A0may be m= uch higher at times the cooling load is lighter than for the aircraft. =A0= =0A>=0A>We use one ounce per gallon of Red Line synthetic 2 cycle oil in th= e fuel. No wear, and never a failure. For 2 cycle non synthetics I would ne= ver go less than one ounce per gallon. And a bit more won't hurt anything.= =0A>Never use synthetic crank case oil in the fuel. It is very stable at hi= gh temps and will make black puddles under you exhaust pipe. =A0=0A>=0A>I r= un on as usual.=0A>=0A>Lynn E. Hanover=A0=0A>=0A>In a message dated 8/19/20= 11 11:39:52 A.M. Paraguay Standard Time, echristley@att.net writes:=0A>One = of these remote mounts bolted to the firewall solves a lot of problems.=A0 = Just cover the filter block mount point =0A>>with a chunk of aluminum and p= ipe oil from the remote mount into the port at the bottom of the engine bel= ow the port.=A0 I =0A>>have an extra adapter to convert that port to AN if = you want it, but you'll need two.=A0 I think it was Mazda Trix that =0A>>se= lls them.=0A>>=0A>>Andrew Martin wrote:=0A>>> Charlie, I made my own adapte= r that utilizes stock filter, 20mm block =0A>>> drilled to reverse oil port= s and accommodate pressure,temp and RD-1c ports.=0A>>> easy to do just mark= oil ports from gasket on both sides of adapter =0A>>> block then drill hol= es at a 45=B0 angle from each side, think about it as =0A>>> its not hard t= o do once you drill in the right direction.=0A>>> =0A>>> Andrew=0A>>> =0A>>= > =0A>=0A>=0A=0A=0A--=20=0DDale_R=0DCozy MKIV #497 --0-386488707-1313872851=:4438 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dale,
   Forgot = to add that oil will be taken directly out the side of the front iron hsg since
"Mistral" backplate has no provision for pump output or front re= gulator and the rear
hsg regulator will be removed and pluged..............  
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE D= ELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM= 2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

----- Forwarded Message -----
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@a= tt.net>
To: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 2:53 PM
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request

Dale,
    All true and I realize -12 is severe overkill= as far as the volume of oil needed by
a 13B.............My main objective is the reduction of&nbs= p;frictional loses (restriction) and
possibly slightly lower oil temp using oversize hose and a filte= r capable of 20 g= pm
with minimal pressure loss..........I will be lubing a Turbocharger plus the RD1C an= d
cooling the Rotors with 180 to 200 mm jets..........I will = have added three additional=
lube jobs (additional volume needed) and additional heat to an alread= y stressed oil
system...........The external pressure regulator an= d bypass just allows me to adjust
pressure with out pulling the sump.............The = downside is the extra weight of -12 
hoses , regulator and an oversize = oil filter which I have not calculated yet but my oil
system would have been basically the same even without larger hose and filter...........  &nb= sp;  
 
Kelly Troyer
"= DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Mani= fold
"TURBONETICS= "_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Dale_R <dale.rog= @gmail.com>
To: Rotar= y motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 12:24 PM<= BR>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request

Kelly,

   I = know you asked Lynn, but ...

Things to think about: the original oil= system for the 13B was designed to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - on= e to the main bearings and one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flywh= eel end) iron. Any volume of oil that exceeds the capacities of those paths= will result in excessive oil pressure.  Going to an external pressure= regulator will solve that problem, but to what purpose?  For any give= n pressure, going from a 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pum= ped; going to a -10 (5/8") nearly triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more tha= n quadruples it - you end up pumping a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to = it - then cooling it and returning it directly to the sump.

So, how= much oil flow do you need for your turbo and re-drive?  As much as th= e engine itself?  I rather suspect that having larger than -10 up to the point where the oil supply splits to service the various components= won't buy you any advantage except lower oil temps, and  that is actu= ally doubtful.

Dale_R
COZY MkIV #0497


On 8/20/2011 8:58 = AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=20
Lynn,
   I will be using -12 hose from engine pump outlet&nb= sp;to remote filter to cooler and to engine
with a "Aviaid" external regulator with a -10 bypass directly to t= he sump (overkill I am sure
but I want to reduce restriction as much as possible)........My = question would a single NAPA
1515 or K&N filter flowing 9 gph put the restriction I am= trying to eliminate back in..........??  
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Man= ifold
"TURBONETIC= S"_TO4E50 Turbo

= From: "Lehanover@aol.com" <Lehanover@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:09 AM<= BR>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request

Of the many things to think about is the oiling system and pieces.
 
That bypass valve that filter folks talk about is not a valve at all. = Most filter spin on cans have the elements pressed against the top cover
(where the oil enters and leaves) by a spring. Oil flows into the= can (through the small holes around the outside) and exits throu= gh the big center hole. There is a seal between the outer small holes and t= he inner big hole.
 
When the element loads up with dirt or bearing material, the pressure = drop across the element forces the element away from the top plate against = a spring in the bottom of the can. That spring is a real coil spring in goo= d filters, and a flat (leaf) in cheap filters like Fram.
 
Where the can is mounted inverted, the heavy debris piles up around th= e plate end of the element. So when the element bypasses the oil can flow d= irectly from the small holes to the big hole with no filtration at all.
And right there is all of that dying engine debris ready to go right b= ack to the bearings. 
 
Where the can is mounted with the plate up, the heavy stuff is at the = bottom of the can away from the plate. May not sound like much until
you arrive at over the trees at Podunk needing only 2 seconds mor= e power to clear that last tree and make the runway. 
 
The remote mount is a weight penalty unless you needed more nose weigh= t anyway. But provides more latitude on location and clearance.
The inverted element tends to trap foamed oil at low engine speeds, an= d save it as a dose of air and condensate for your next start up.
 
K&N filters have a 450 to 550 pound burst can and are used in most= racing classes. They cost just slightly more than a good street filter and= are available in any hot rod shop or mail order.
 
The Frams that Racing Beat suggests are really good filters, and I would= be shocked to find that Fram actually makes them. Those filters are way too = big for aircraft use and very heavy when full of oil. The usual filter stan= d is built to fit the Fram PH8A or Lee FL-1 Both Ford crosses from the 70s. &= nbsp;The center hole is 3/4 x 16 thread.
The NAPA 1515 also works just fine if you have a store close by.
About 9 GPM= and 300 pound burst.
 
The airplane engine has a more severe duty cycle than a race car. It i= s
load limited to about 6,500 RPM at wide open throttle. So the heat is = constant and high. The racer has long periods of closed throttle and even t= hough the RPM may be much higher at times the cooling load is lighter = than for the aircraft.  
 
We use one ounce per gallon of Red Line synthetic 2 cycle oil in the f= uel. No wear, and never a failure. For 2 cycle non synthetics= I would never go less than one ounce per gallon= . And a bit more won't hurt anything.
Never use synthetic crank case oil in the fuel. It is very stable at h= igh temps and will make black puddles under you exhaust pipe.  
 
I run on as usual.
 
Lynn E. Hanover 
 
In a message dated 8/19/2011 11:39:52 A.M. Paraguay Standard Time, = echristley@att.net writes:
One of these remote mounts bolted to the firewall solv= es a lot of problems.  Just cover the filter block mount point
wit= h a chunk of aluminum and pipe oil from the remote mount into the port at t= he bottom of the engine below the port.  I
have an extra adapter t= o convert that port to AN if you want it, but you'll need two.  I thin= k it was Mazda Trix that
sells them.

Andrew Martin wrote:
>= ; Charlie, I made my own adapter that <= SPAN id=3Dmisspell-36>utilizes stock filter, 20m= m block
> drilled to reverse oil ports and accommodate pressure,temp= and RD-1c ports.
> easy to do just mark oil ports from gasket on bot= h sides of adapter
> block then drill holes at a 45=B0 angle from ea= ch side, think about it as
> its not hard to do once you drill in the right = direction.
>
> Andrew
>
> 




--=20
Dale_R
Cozy MKIV=
 #497




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