X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-pz0-f48.google.com ([209.85.210.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5098487 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:25:18 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.48; envelope-from=dale.rog@gmail.com Received: by pzk34 with SMTP id 34so7709405pzk.7 for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:24:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type; bh=wzE2mngGC3aa9zBLPzrLWW1WqcqvO3a5NhMXbffKeJ0=; b=LdW2SO+xa1KvjmH6nzBdhWBf4Q8O/HivH6jXAufO9v73KVPHzTF0vXLx9tOKPiifgm wxZk0e3kJw4JafNiP4RvKWkjjpUOSMWqs6wBVDh1L4ruiKXHwN32s4dysxRaAPxeeL41 LnkZNSlUVLt9BXg4qjOTUKblAS0NlHuT3uiFc= Received: by 10.142.149.33 with SMTP id w33mr455208wfd.220.1313861081173; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.107] (ip72-201-24-223.ph.ph.cox.net [72.201.24.223]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l15sm1981485wfe.12.2011.08.20.10.24.38 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4E4FEDBE.7050205@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:24:14 -0700 From: Dale_R User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:6.0) Gecko/20110812 Thunderbird/6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060504020602050800040501" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060504020602050800040501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kelly, I know you asked Lynn, but ... Things to think about: the original oil system for the 13B was designed to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main bearings and one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. Any volume of oil that exceeds the capacities of those paths will result in excessive oil pressure. Going to an external pressure regulator will solve that problem, but to what purpose? For any given pressure, going from a 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pumped; going to a -10 (5/8") nearly triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples it - you end up pumping a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling it and returning it directly to the sump. So, how much oil flow do you need for your turbo and re-drive? As much as the engine itself? I rather suspect that having larger than -10 up to the point where the oil supply splits to service the various components won't buy you any advantage except lower oil temps, and that is actually doubtful. Dale_R COZY MkIV #0497 On 8/20/2011 8:58 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Lynn, > I will be using -12 hose from engine pump outlet to remote filter > to cooler and to engine > with a "Aviaid" external regulator with a -10 bypass directly to the > sump (overkill I am sure > but I want to reduce restriction as much as possible)........My > question would a single NAPA > 1515 or K&N filter flowing 9 gph put the restriction I am trying to > eliminate back in..........?? > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > *From:* "Lehanover@aol.com" > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:09 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request > > Of the many things to think about is the oiling system and pieces. > That bypass valve that filter folks talk about is not a valve at all. > Most filter spin on cans have the elements pressed against the top cover > (where the oil enters and leaves) by a spring. Oil flows into the > can (through the small holes around the outside) and exits through the > big center hole. There is a seal between the outer small holes and the > inner big hole. > When the element loads up with dirt or bearing material, the pressure > drop across the element forces the element away from the top plate > against a spring in the bottom of the can. That spring is a real coil > spring in good filters, and a flat (leaf) in cheap filters like Fram. > Where the can is mounted inverted, the heavy debris piles up around > the plate end of the element. So when the element bypasses the oil can > flow directly from the small holes to the big hole with no filtration > at all. > And right there is all of that dying engine debris ready to go right > back to the bearings. > Where the can is mounted with the plate up, the heavy stuff is at the > bottom of the can away from the plate. May not sound like much until > you arrive at over the trees at Podunk needing only 2 seconds more > power to clear that last tree and make the runway. > The remote mount is a weight penalty unless you needed more nose > weight anyway. But provides more latitude on location and clearance. > The inverted element tends to trap foamed oil at low engine speeds, > and save it as a dose of air and condensate for your next start up. > K&N filters have a 450 to 550 pound burst can and are used in most > racing classes. They cost just slightly more than a good street filter > and are available in any hot rod shop or mail order. > The Frams that Racing Beat suggests are really good filters, and I > would be shocked to find that Fram actually makes them. Those filters > are way too big for aircraft use and very heavy when full of oil. The > usual filter stand is built to fit the Fram PH8A or Lee FL-1 Both Ford > crosses from the 70s. The center hole is 3/4 x 16 thread. > The NAPA 1515 also works just fine if you have a store close by. > About 9 GPM and 300 pound burst. > The airplane engine has a more severe duty cycle than a race car. It is > load limited to about 6,500 RPM at wide open throttle. So the heat is > constant and high. The racer has long periods of closed throttle and > even though the RPM may be much higher at times the cooling load is > lighter than for the aircraft. > We use one ounce per gallon of Red Line synthetic 2 cycle oil in the > fuel. No wear, and never a failure. For 2 cycle nonsynthetics I would > never go less than one ounce per gallon. And a bit more won't hurt > anything. > Never use synthetic crank case oil in the fuel. It is very stable at > high temps and will make black puddles under you exhaust pipe. > I run on as usual. > Lynn E. Hanover > In a message dated 8/19/2011 11:39:52 A.M. Paraguay Standard Time, > echristley@att.net writes: > > One of these remote mounts bolted to the firewall solves a lot of > problems. Just cover the filter block mount point > with a chunk of aluminum and pipe oil from the remote mount into > the port at the bottom of the engine below the port. I > have an extra adapter to convert that port to AN if you want it, > but you'll need two. I think it was Mazda Trix that > sells them. > > Andrew Martin wrote: > > Charlie, I made my own adapter that utilises stock filter, 20mm > block > > drilled to reverse oil ports and accommodate pressure,temp and > RD-1c ports. > > easy to do just mark oil ports from gasket on both sides of adapter > > block then drill holes at a 45° angle from each side, think > about it as > > its not hard to do once you drill in the right direction. > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > -- Dale_R Cozy MKIV #497 --------------060504020602050800040501 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kelly,

   I know you asked Lynn, but ...

Things to think about: the original oil system for the 13B was designed to support two 10mm (~3/8") oil paths - one to the main bearings and one to the pressure regulator in the rear (flywheel end) iron. Any volume of oil that exceeds the capacities of those paths will result in excessive oil pressure.  Going to an external pressure regulator will solve that problem, but to what purpose?  For any given pressure, going from a 3/8" line to 1/2" adds 77% to the volume being pumped; going to a -10 (5/8") nearly triples the oil flow; -12 (3/4") more than quadruples it - you end up pumping a lot of oil - thereby adding heat to it - then cooling it and returning it directly to the sump.

So, how much oil flow do you need for your turbo and re-drive?  As much as the engine itself?  I rather suspect that having larger than -10 up to the point where the oil supply splits to service the various components won't buy you any advantage except lower oil temps, and  that is actually doubtful.

Dale_R
COZY MkIV #0497


On 8/20/2011 8:58 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote:
Lynn,
   I will be using -12 hose from engine pump outlet to remote filter to cooler and to engine
with a "Aviaid" external regulator with a -10 bypass directly to the sump (overkill I am sure
but I want to reduce restriction as much as possible)........My question would a single NAPA
1515 or K&N filter flowing 9 gph put the restriction I am trying to eliminate back in..........??  
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: "Lehanover@aol.com" <Lehanover@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:09 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fwd: oil premix data; info request

Of the many things to think about is the oiling system and pieces.
 
That bypass valve that filter folks talk about is not a valve at all. Most filter spin on cans have the elements pressed against the top cover
(where the oil enters and leaves) by a spring. Oil flows into the can (through the small holes around the outside) and exits through the big center hole. There is a seal between the outer small holes and the inner big hole.
 
When the element loads up with dirt or bearing material, the pressure drop across the element forces the element away from the top plate against a spring in the bottom of the can. That spring is a real coil spring in good filters, and a flat (leaf) in cheap filters like Fram.
 
Where the can is mounted inverted, the heavy debris piles up around the plate end of the element. So when the element bypasses the oil can flow directly from the small holes to the big hole with no filtration at all.
And right there is all of that dying engine debris ready to go right back to the bearings. 
 
Where the can is mounted with the plate up, the heavy stuff is at the bottom of the can away from the plate. May not sound like much until
you arrive at over the trees at Podunk needing only 2 seconds more power to clear that last tree and make the runway. 
 
The remote mount is a weight penalty unless you needed more nose weight anyway. But provides more latitude on location and clearance.
The inverted element tends to trap foamed oil at low engine speeds, and save it as a dose of air and condensate for your next start up.
 
K&N filters have a 450 to 550 pound burst can and are used in most racing classes. They cost just slightly more than a good street filter and are available in any hot rod shop or mail order.
 
The Frams that Racing Beat suggests are really good filters, and I would be shocked to find that Fram actually makes them. Those filters are way too big for aircraft use and very heavy when full of oil. The usual filter stand is built to fit the Fram PH8A or Lee FL-1 Both Ford crosses from the 70s.  The center hole is 3/4 x 16 thread.
The NAPA 1515 also works just fine if you have a store close by.
About 9 GPM and 300 pound burst.
 
The airplane engine has a more severe duty cycle than a race car. It is
load limited to about 6,500 RPM at wide open throttle. So the heat is constant and high. The racer has long periods of closed throttle and even though the RPM may be much higher at times the cooling load is lighter than for the aircraft.  
 
We use one ounce per gallon of Red Line synthetic 2 cycle oil in the fuel. No wear, and never a failure. For 2 cycle nonsynthetics I would never go less than one ounce per gallon. And a bit more won't hurt anything.
Never use synthetic crank case oil in the fuel. It is very stable at high temps and will make black puddles under you exhaust pipe.  
 
I run on as usual.
 
Lynn E. Hanover 
 
In a message dated 8/19/2011 11:39:52 A.M. Paraguay Standard Time, echristley@att.net writes:
One of these remote mounts bolted to the firewall solves a lot of problems.  Just cover the filter block mount point
with a chunk of aluminum and pipe oil from the remote mount into the port at the bottom of the engine below the port.  I
have an extra adapter to convert that port to AN if you want it, but you'll need two.  I think it was Mazda Trix that
sells them.

Andrew Martin wrote:
> Charlie, I made my own adapter that utilises stock filter, 20mm block
> drilled to reverse oil ports and accommodate pressure,temp and RD-1c ports.
> easy to do just mark oil ports from gasket on both sides of adapter
> block then drill holes at a 45° angle from each side, think about it as
> its not hard to do once you drill in the right direction.
>
> Andrew
>
> 




-- 
Dale_R
Cozy MKIV #497
--------------060504020602050800040501--