X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm15-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.164] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5098478 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:16:40 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.164; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.101] by nm15.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2011 17:16:04 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.64] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2011 17:16:04 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1001.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2011 17:16:04 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 598368.96447.bm@omp1001.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 68434 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Aug 2011 17:16:04 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1313860564; bh=MJCngwSrNaPHtoJFsrKcXnscQk2jJLxgD2858pD0WoI=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=iBvf0+MnwL6gDIVpYE7Se/Ri8SJrJ6XPkqm6t0aWjgXj5sFJB6bXzsY0KZxNZRxlVgEl1QEdIlDAHoRhr9ZicMIyv4QFKogfIgwrM5Lrk+DqRxKWPtaGcjC7FadxyYL6sSyq9i3V4S4V1a79XNrgEvMMKRPat2v7NJE+VkfIc6M= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=pto+Xq+LCb9OE3YU9gH9/rlmV7nk5qIEPF30+Z+y/2aNh08LSAWts5IMFfdx7cSj9eDdS228+twzd+gEnARUP4r2bQPVvu9o4QbXxQpYajmtv20ws64VSVBEqXxnSLLuG/M90Us9XsrUXqff1ykh0m37IEuPxb4hJ5DEXX1GZt4=; X-YMail-OSG: CfnsSHYVM1lEjcOqByqKiUF3H17_R2om3h7E2woxxfM4noj lfPxUwYy_NTJ6m9VvNVV1w9H8evQS.QTXKtV76LPIMm8G6KrqNea7711TIO2 0X3PZ2K1EdvOrpMbyid_mIDHuGxPXMB_G0zfOiqJAK8ztkHorBkTWuZslwiG uURZWqY_GFvvtEsFHc2j4NhEGOdAjdTHDe_XetYFEzzMul27w0gQ5coOLTFB .KCg9iJ.JKCIEMcLzzSCdjAovNoWE.fN1XW0XY0jPk7nSl1ikMChL9lID_F4 ipKYF1bwWQp506fL.MGdmNnlkNAyC0ZJi5YBdrtI7tKHpfvXXlOTVDg706uq zJKLeQs0IJkMbH3W85pnMfhB5PXbUASNDiDF5zOiUNwSxjOtzXr1spLO_EuF oKUXlaTuzu.hhgDmUHqJMKuwPwrprgqSV6Ssh2iAzwuvOZeevoXpH1.qLutX YUmJMohwTmJcz_SGlOEjfjfEYW_6sKo1IhBZCOV6kE6tyC6V2Sv.B1ZbhpLh wV4T4yUE4RPRSW0PBl6rYU0YTMETOZyeLIC4mf4ZH_w_FtNRhOOrticU4kgl rETmZGPgFtFBv72nZckWRc2ik0csBpw-- Received: from [208.114.46.104] by web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:16:04 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: Message-ID: <1313860564.67925.YahooMailNeo@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 10:16:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1436638288-1313860564=:67925" --0-1436638288-1313860564=:67925 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark,=0A=A0=A0=A0 Where is your=A0fuel level relative to the pumps.........= .=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine= =0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO= 4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors= in aircraft =0ASent: Friday, August 19, 2011 = 2:46 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any oth= ers, for that matter.=0A=0A=0AAl,=A0 =0A=0AYes, the inlet filters are coars= e screen, one per tank. =A0=0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0AOn Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:13 = PM, Al Wick wrote:=0A=0AMark said:=0A>Way to be. Glad you went to the effort to t= est it. Others might have been tempted to respond just by cracking the fitt= ing on fuel rail. Fuel starts to flow: "Took care that problem". You pursue= d further so that running one tank dry is not catastrophic. =0A>=0A>Top vie= w of your diagram looks good. It's the fine details that make a difference.= Some plumbing oversight prevented your pumps from getting wet. =0A>I do ho= pe those two inlet filters are coarse ones with low pressure drop and high = surface area. You can't beat the oem inlet filter bags. =0A>=A0=0A>-al wick= =0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>From: Mark Steitle =0A>>To: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 11:46 AM=0A>>Subject= : [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that mat= ter.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Al, =0A>>=0A>>You wrote,"You also test it without the bl= eed line?"=A0=0A>>=0A>>Yes, the test led to the search for a solution.=A0 Y= ou can see the "bypass circuit" on Egg's fuel system schematic at http://ww= w.eggenfellneraircraft.com/Manual-Updates/EarlyManualFuel.html.=A0 This is= =A0what I=A0incorporated into my=A0fuel system, and it solved the problem.= =A0 Its been quite a few years now, but I=A0may still have=A0some of the po= sts on the Eggenfellner=A0list=A0that occurred in search for this as the fi= nal solution.=0A>>=A0=0A>>You wrote,"FWIW, everything you describe is not v= apor lock, has nothing to do with vapor lock."=A0 =0A>>=0A>>As I said, I'm = not sure if my condition fits the definition of "vapor lock", but that's wh= at someone labeled it, and it stuck.=A0 The problem is that EFI pumps don't= =A0draw or push air very well.=A0 So, if the flowing fuel is replaced by ai= r due to an empty tank, the pump keeps running, but essentially=A0stops pum= ping fuel.=A0 With a 40# spring in the downstream circuit, it is virtually = impossible for the pump to pass the air=A0even though=A0the selector valve = has been swiched to the full tank.=A0 I would agree that the fuel injectors= should be able to pass the air, provided the prop is still turning.=A0 (Th= is was not the case with my ground test.) The bypass circuit ensures that f= low will=A0be restored as soon as the bubble=A0passes through the pump and= =A0the fuel pump regains its prime.=A0 =0A>>=0A>>Mark S.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On W= ed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Al Wick wrote:=0A>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>Instead of speculations, you can actually measure ho= w good it is. A pump, clear fuel lines, and water instead of fuel. Pinch fu= el line with pliers to increase pressure drop.=A0 Watch bubbles come out of= solution. Hear the rattle from pump due to it's inability to flow air. =0A= >>>If you also put a pressure gage on pump inlet, you can see how fine fuel= filter increases risk. You can see how small diameter tubing increases ris= k, heat, head pressure, etc etc. =0A>>>=A0=0A>>>>>Egg had one forced landing. It was caused by vapor lock. Absolute= ly NOTHING to do with the lack of bleed line. A day later, Jan made it to t= he crash site. Pump would not flow fuel until he cracked the line loose. Th= is is simply because the inlet to pumps was not wet. He did not understand = this. He just reacted to symptoms. Nothing to do with vapor lock. Remember,= this was crash site. Who knows what attitude plane was at. As I described,= if you screwed up your plumbing from tank to pump, then pump is not self p= riming. =0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>>>You also test it without the bleed line? =0A>>>=0A>>>FWIW,= everything you describe is not vapor lock, has nothing to do with vapor lo= ck. =0A>>>=A0-al wick=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>>Fro= m: Mark Steitle =0A>>>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>>>Sent: Wednesday= , August 17, 2011 9:19 AM=0A>>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fu= el System...or any others, for that matter.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Al,=0A>>>>= =0A>>>>I would think that a well-designed=A0fuel system=A0with the pumps lo= cated as low as possible, in a=A0cool area,=A0and=A0a return system=A0shoul= d not be troubled with vapor locking.=A0=A0Although I guess it could happen= in Death Valley in=A0August if the a/c is left out in the sun for 8 hours,= and running auto gas.=A0 So far, I haven't had any problem here in Texas (= temps 105* today).=A0 =A0 =0A>>>>=0A>>>>My purpose for installing the bypas= s circuit was more critical to safe flight.=A0 (The solution was=A0the resu= lt of a forced landing, or two,=A0in an Eggenfellner Subaru installation.)= =A0 During ground runs, using a 5-gallon can, I found that the efi fuel pum= ps could not restore pressure once the tank had been allowed to run dry.=A0= =A0When this occurred, the EFI pump=A0would suck a big slug of air into the= inlet side of the pump, loose pressure,=A0and being unable to build psi eq= ual to the pressure regulator setting, it would stop pumping fuel (vapor lo= ck).=A0 The only way to restore operation was to crack open the system down= stream of the pump until the slug of air could be passed on through the fue= l pump.=A0=A0Not sure this meets your definiton of "vapor lock", but I thin= k it does, but for a different reason than fuel vapor pressure.=0A>>>>=0A>>= >>I have tested this system on the ground and it works as advertized.=A0 If= the tank runs dry, switched to a full tank, the efi pump will restore pres= sure to the system within a few seconds.=A0 I urge all builders to run this= test on their fuel system to determine whether or not their pumps are able= to restore pressure after running a tank dry.=A0 Or, just don't ever run a= tank dry.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Mark S.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=A0=0A>>>>On Wed, Aug 1= 7, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Ernest Christley wrote:=0A>>>>=0A= >>>>Al Wick wrote:=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>I'm really concerned for some of these fu= el designs. The fuel bleed has nothing to do with vapor lock. Virtually no = effect at all.=0A>>>>>>=A0=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>I don't know why others are doin= g it, but for me, the bleed has nothing at all to do with vapor lock. =A0So= me conversations have been mixed together, so I can see how that could be t= he impression. =A0The point of the pressure bleed is to bleed off the press= ure after shutdown.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>I have a strong, positive head pressure = going into my pumps. =A0They, and the regulator, are about 8" directly belo= w the tank. =A0Excess fuel goes back to the opposite side of the tank from = the pickup, and a single line goes forward to feed the injectors. =A0The fu= el lines are arranged such that heat soaking the lines to the point of boil= ing the gas will push liquid fuel down hill and behind the firewall, isolat= ing the gaseous gas with its heat at the top of the line. =A0Turning the pu= mps on will pressurize the line to 55psi, returning most of the gaseous fue= l back to a liquid state. =A0The ECM is programmed for a longer clearing pu= lse on hot start.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>The point of the bleed is to allow fuel to= move back to the tank. =A0I had the issue of a the pressurized lines being= perfectly sealed. =A0The pressurized fuel was finding the path of least re= sistance out, which just happened to be out the injector and into the intak= e manifold where it sat as a little puddle. =A0Heat soaking the lines would= not push liquid fuel downhill and back behind the firewall. =A0It would pu= sh more fuel into the manifold. =A0A puddle of gas sitting in a composite m= anifold, just above a hot exhaust stack is just bad mojo. =A0A poorly seale= d regulator allows the pressure to bleed off in about 5 seconds (give or ta= ke), isolating the hot fuel in front of the firewall, and keeping the rest = cool and out of the intake manifold.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>Got nuthin' to do with = vapor lock.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>--=0A>>>>>Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/= =0A>>>>>Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyro= tary/List.html=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>--=0A>>Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.= com/=0A>>Archive and UnSub:=A0=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/fl= yrotary/List.html=0A>> --0-1436638288-1313860564=:67925 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
    W= here is your fuel level relative to the = pumps..........
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net>
Sent:= Friday, August 19, 2011 2:46 PM
Su= bject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any othe= rs, for that matter.

Al, 

Yes, the inlet filters are coarse screen, one per tank.  

Mark

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Al Wi= ck <alwick@juno.com> wrote:
Mark said:
<Yes, the test led to the search for a solution
Way to be. Glad you went to the effort to test it. Others might have b= een tempted to respond just by cracking the fitting on fuel rail. Fuel star= ts to flow: "Took care that problem". You pursued further so that running o= ne tank dry is not catastrophic.
 
Top view of your diagram looks good. It's = the fine details that make a difference. Some plumbing oversight prevented = your pumps from getting wet.
I do hope those two inlet filters are coar= se ones with low pressure drop and high surface area. You can't beat the oe= m inlet filter bags.
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 11:= 46 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Have= rlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter.

Al,
 
You wrote,"You also test it without the bleed line?" 
 
Yes, the test led to the search for a solution.  You can see the = "bypass circuit" on Egg's fuel system schematic at http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/Manual-Updates/EarlyMan= ualFuel.html.  This is what I incorporated into my = fuel system, and it solved the problem.  Its been quite a few years no= w, but I may still have some of the posts on the Eggenfellner&nbs= p;list that occurred in search for this as the final solution.
&nbs= p;
You wrote,"FWIW, everything you describe is not vapor lock= , has nothing to do with vapor lock." 
 
As I said, I'm not sure if my condition fits the definition of "vapor = lock", but that's what someone labeled it, and it stuck.  The problem = is that EFI pumps don't draw or push air very well.  So, if the f= lowing fuel is replaced by air due to an empty tank, the pump keeps running= , but essentially stops pumping fuel.  With a 40# spring in the d= ownstream circuit, it is virtually impossible for the pump to pass the air&= nbsp;even though the selector valve has been swiched to the full tank.=   I would agree that the fuel injectors should be able to pass the air= , provided the prop is still turning.  (This was not the case with my = ground test.) The bypass circuit ensures that flow will be restored as= soon as the bubble passes through the pump and the fuel pump reg= ains its prime. 
 
Mark S.

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Al W= ick <alwick@juno.com> wrote:
<I would think that a well-designed fuel system with the pumps loca= ted as low as possible
 
Instead of speculations, you can actually = measure how good it is. A pump, clear fuel lines, and water instead of fuel= . Pinch fuel line with pliers to increase pressure drop.  Watch bubble= s come out of solution. Hear the rattle from pump due to it's inability to = flow air.
If you also put a pressure gage on pump in= let, you can see how fine fuel filter increases risk. You can see how small= diameter tubing increases risk, heat, head pressure, etc etc.
 
<the result of a forced landing
Egg had one forced landing. It was caused by vapor lock. Absolutely NO= THING to do with the lack of bleed line. A day later, Jan made it to the cr= ash site. Pump would not flow fuel until he cracked the line loose. This is= simply because the inlet to pumps was not wet. He did not understand this.= He just reacted to symptoms. Nothing to do with vapor lock. Remember, this= was crash site. Who knows what attitude plane was at. As I described, if y= ou screwed up your plumbing from tank to pump, then pump is not self primin= g.
 
<tested this system on the ground and it works as advertized
<= /DIV>
You also test it without the bleed line?
 
FWIW, everything you describe is not vapor= lock, has nothing to do with vapor lock.
 
-al wick
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 9:1= 9 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Have= rlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter.

Al,
 
I would think that a well-designed fuel system with the pump= s located as low as possible, in a cool area, and a return s= ystem should not be troubled with vapor locking.  Although I= guess it could happen in Death Valley in August if the a/c is left ou= t in the sun for 8 hours, and running auto gas.  So far, I haven't had= any problem here in Texas (temps 105* today).   
 
My purpose for installing the bypass circuit was more critical to safe= flight.  (The solution was the result of a forced landing, or tw= o, in an Eggenfellner Subaru installation.)  During ground runs, = using a 5-gallon can, I found that the efi fuel pumps could not restore pre= ssure once the tank had been allowed to run dry.  When this occur= red, the EFI pump would suck a big slug of air into the inlet side of = the pump, loose pressure, and being unable to build psi equal to the p= ressure regulator setting, it would stop pumping fuel (vapor lock).  T= he only way to restore operation was to crack open the system downstream of= the pump until the slug of air could be passed on through the fuel pump.&n= bsp; Not sure this meets your definiton of "vapor lock", but I think i= t does, but for a different reason than fuel vapor pressure.
 
I have tested this system on the ground and it works as advertized.&nb= sp; If the tank runs dry, switched to a full tank, the efi pump will restor= e pressure to the system within a few seconds.  I urge all builders to= run this test on their fuel system to determine whether or not their pumps= are able to restore pressure after running a tank dry.  Or, just don'= t ever run a tank dry.
 
Mark S.


 
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Erne= st Christley <echristle= y@att.net> wrote:
Al Wick wrote:
I'm really concerned f= or some of these fuel designs. The fuel bleed has nothing to do with vapor = lock. Virtually no effect at all.
 

I don= 't know why others are doing it, but for me, the bleed has nothing at all t= o do with vapor lock.  Some conversations have been mixed together, so= I can see how that could be the impression.  The point of the pressur= e bleed is to bleed off the pressure after shutdown.

I have a strong= , positive head pressure going into my pumps.  They, and the regulator= , are about 8" directly below the tank.  Excess fuel goes back to the = opposite side of the tank from the pickup, and a single line goes forward t= o feed the injectors.  The fuel lines are arranged such that heat soak= ing the lines to the point of boiling the gas will push liquid fuel down hill and behind the firewall, isolating the gaseous gas with its heat at t= he top of the line.  Turning the pumps on will pressurize the line to = 55psi, returning most of the gaseous fuel back to a liquid state.  The= ECM is programmed for a longer clearing pulse on hot start.

The poi= nt of the bleed is to allow fuel to move back to the tank.  I had the = issue of a the pressurized lines being perfectly sealed.  The pressuri= zed fuel was finding the path of least resistance out, which just happened = to be out the injector and into the intake manifold where it sat as a littl= e puddle.  Heat soaking the lines would not push liquid fuel downhill = and back behind the firewall.  It would push more fuel into the manifo= ld.  A puddle of gas sitting in a composite manifold, just above a hot= exhaust stack is just bad mojo.  A poorly sealed regulator allows the= pressure to bleed off in about 5 seconds (give or take), isolating the hot fuel in front of the firewall, and keeping the rest cool and out o= f the intake manifold.

Got nuthin' to do with vapor lock.

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive= and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.ne= t:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

=

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Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/<= /A>
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