X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail.dca.untd.com ([64.136.47.15] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5096366 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:22:38 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.47.15; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1313684523; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=YbMoR92Q3Q5GgvMmW5s6y7CbYDXqCe1n+MxjSLC4DiQB3yW5vFDtJ+ZNVih+tmemp 8GLtTKyFTLzARr6qWLk2KQcfTGLwxQcZDBtN3EQJAyYF5fwm5TOxpwZbOXTGw3Nv7+ zaZsZh2jioQmSDsQd0nJe6NZZ8lrOU3gdz3fJE6Y= Received: from Penny (50-39-167-113.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.167.113]) by smtpout01.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABHE4Q9ZAZ96YFS for (sender ); Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Sam Hodges NTSB write up Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:21:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_017A_01CC5D88.2A8C1260" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-UNTD-BodySize: 19063 X-ContentStamp: 41:20:2181990242 X-MAIL-INFO: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 e0207d4459705400e98db1a1d96420f075c9d00014a051c915f1fd2d4064298d50947554fdd13509b9d5d53d90b45489c4197d11112144152125 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkCI2uf0f0ZsItp5ThEvie5UbReoOC5kxPQ== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.171.42.31|smtpout01.dca.untd.com|smtpout01.dca.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_017A_01CC5D88.2A8C1260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You are describing classic symptoms of vapor lock. I wish you had a = Hodges vapor tester and a pressure gage on pump inlet. You'd discover = they had the same reading. You were probably within 1 degree F of total = loss of power.=20 Vapor tester: http://www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/PriceEuropeAustSA.html The neat thing is, you can actually measure how much vapor safety margin = you have. Without flying. Just get that Hodges tester, measure vapor psi = of your fuel. Let the fuel sit in the sun, measure temp, repeat test. = You will be able to see how temperature affects vapor point. Do this for = 100LL and car fuel, see the difference. Compare Hodges number to your inlet pressure, that's your safety margin. = So as you can see vapor lock is extremely simple concept.....except = there are lot's of things that change that Hodges value. All of these = things make it worse. Ethanol inlet filter type plumbing flow restriction between tank and pump. oat plane sitting on tarmac low fuel level High power setting and low power setting High altitude fuel return location hot fuel pump lot to lot variation in fuel fuel head pressure Like all failures, you can fly for years with a marginal fuel design. = Suddenly, you are in unusual circumstances and don't realize it. = Typically, high elevation airport, hot day, plane sitting on tarmac for = a while.=20 You really can design a fuel sys that is way way lower risk. Not just = vapor lock lower risk, but all other factors too. Don't copy a marginal = fuel design. Copy one that has a huge safety margin. Don't guess, = measure it.=20 This one has largest safety margin I know of: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index_files/Page467.htm= BTW, the pressure regulator is a very simple device. Fuel pushes on one = side of valve, spring pushes on other side. Highly unlikely for it to = fail as described.=20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rino=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:25 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Sam Hodges NTSB write up My probllem with fuel starvation. The fuel pressure regulator is = another component to look at. =20 A few weeks ago, while in flight, the engine started to loose power. = A quick scan showed the fuel pressure going down, it went down to about = 7 psi. I switched fuel pump B on. the pressure came up to about 27 = psi. with the two pumps on and I landed, I was in the circuit at the = time. While taxiing back to the hangar I turned pump A off and the = pressure went down, then I turned pump B off and the pressure went down. = The next day I went back to test the system, I started the engine on = one fuel pump, as usual, the fuel pressure was about 38 psi. as it has = been every time before. Did a few runs on the runway to warm things up, = (no takeoff) everything was ok, fuel pressure was normal all the time, = on one fuel pump of the other. Returned to the hangar, ordered a new = fuel pressure regulator (a new MAZDA regulator) and installed it a few = days later, went flying. The problem never returned. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 12:18 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Sam Hodges NTSB write up But was it flown as the photos show without shielding for the = injectors ??............. Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo From: "bktrub@aol.com" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:03 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Sam Hodges NTSB write up Exactly my thoughts. Really a nece installation- but needs heat = sheilding above the exhaust manifold. Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: kenpowell@comcast.net To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Aug 15, 2011 6:59 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Sam Hodges NTSB write up The obvious issue is the lack of a heat shield between the injectors = and the exhaust. This can cause the fuel to boil. Beautiful = installation other than this. Ken Powell From: "Bob Perkinson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 8:27:30 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Sam Hodges NTSB write up Here are a couple of pictures of Sam's engine installation. These = were taken last year at the Paducah round up. =20 Bob Perkinson RV-9 13B=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_017A_01CC5D88.2A8C1260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You are describing classic symptoms of = vapor lock.=20 I wish you had a Hodges vapor tester and a pressure gage on pump inlet. = You'd=20 discover they had the same reading. You were probably within 1 degree F = of total=20 loss of power.
 
Vapor tester:
http://www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/PriceEuropeAustSA.html
 
The neat thing is, you can actually = measure how=20 much vapor safety margin you have. Without flying. Just get that Hodges = tester,=20 measure vapor psi of your fuel. Let the fuel sit in the sun, measure = temp,=20 repeat test. You will be able to see how temperature affects vapor = point. Do=20 this for 100LL and car fuel, see the difference.
Compare Hodges number to your inlet = pressure,=20 that's your safety margin.
 
So as you can see vapor lock is = extremely simple=20 concept.....except there are lot's of things that change that Hodges = value. All=20 of these things make it worse.
Ethanol
inlet filter type
plumbing flow restriction between tank = and=20 pump.
oat
plane sitting on tarmac
low fuel level
High power setting and low power=20 setting
High altitude
fuel return location
hot fuel pump
lot to lot variation in = fuel
fuel head pressure
 
Like all failures, you can fly for = years with a=20 marginal fuel design. Suddenly, you are in unusual circumstances and = don't=20 realize it. Typically, high elevation airport, hot day, plane sitting on = tarmac=20 for a while.
 
You really can design a fuel sys that = is way way=20 lower risk. Not just vapor lock lower risk, but all other factors too. = Don't=20 copy a marginal fuel design. Copy one that has a huge safety margin. = Don't=20 guess, measure it.
This one has largest safety margin I = know=20 of:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index_files/P= age467.htm
 
 
BTW, the pressure regulator is a very = simple=20 device. Fuel pushes on one side of valve, spring pushes on other side. = Highly=20 unlikely for it to fail as described.
 
-al wick
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rino
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 = 3:25=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Sam = Hodges NTSB=20 write up

My probllem with fuel = starvation.  The fuel=20 pressure regulator is another component to look at.   =
 
A few weeks ago, while in flight, the = engine=20 started to loose power.  A quick scan showed the fuel pressure = going=20 down, it went down to about 7 psi.  I switched fuel pump B = on.  the=20 pressure came up to about 27 psi. with the two pumps on and I = landed,  I=20 was in the circuit at the time.  While taxiing back to the hangar = I=20 turned pump A off and the pressure went down, then I turned pump B off = and the=20 pressure went down.   The next day I went back to test the = system, I=20 started the engine on one fuel pump, as usual, the fuel pressure = was =20 about 38 psi. as it has been every time before.  Did a few runs = on the=20 runway to warm things up, (no takeoff) everything was ok, fuel = pressure was=20 normal all the time, on one fuel pump of the other.   = Returned to=20 the hangar, ordered a new fuel pressure regulator (a new MAZDA = regulator) and=20 installed it a few days later, went flying.  The problem never=20 returned.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, = 2011 12:18=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Sam = Hodges=20 NTSB write up

But was it flown as the photos show without = shielding = for the=20 injectors ??.............
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 = Turbo

From: "bktrub@aol.com" <bktrub@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 = 9:03=20 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Sam Hodges NTSB write=20 up

Exactly my = thoughts. Really a=20 nece installation- but = needs heat=20 sheilding above the = exhaust=20 manifold.
 
Brian Trubee



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: kenpowell@comcast.net
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Aug 15, 2011 6:59=20 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Sam Hodges NTSB write up

The=20 obvious issue is the lack of a heat shield between the = injectors and=20 the exhaust.  This can cause the fuel to boil. Beautiful = installation=20 other than this.

Ken Powell

From: = "Bob Perkinson" <bobperk90658@bellsouth.net<= /A>>
To:=20 "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t>
Sent:=20 Monday, August 15, 2011 8:27:30 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Sam Hodges NTSB write = up

Here are a couple of pictures of Sam's engine installation. =  These=20 were taken last year at the Paducah=20 round up.
 
Bob Perkinson
RV-9 13B=20




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