X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm16-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.166] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5095380 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:40:46 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.166; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.100] by nm16.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Aug 2011 19:40:09 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.71] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Aug 2011 19:40:09 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1008.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Aug 2011 19:40:09 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 486200.70876.bm@omp1008.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 63829 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Aug 2011 19:40:04 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1313610004; bh=150vTPv+M6aljJAbAnr88zsBXE7Y7QBXuNwWj+TZm54=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=HLTMzmn31U4L3H9MZpxkZGciLLQmXzi3Otvurx0k4dlAs58nGlfzqkuk2v5NCO8Ci70o0ZXEPe/OAaldOslA8rR/PkcGw2DU/9luiEXkYXx3SFt+BnDQxp0PYabLFBYPtBZU7eWxQEM9qZyqJtQa09k3RUo+jWpBlMvxWZCf2nc= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=4acR4dIkuRNefG856Gh1Kjg0E4XIKLnM72UWHgF5r9Id2mxGML2KXWARn6ebRjLt8MFYCNo8E+eVM/YXWhgsm05x42Fvs3GAt8eY7daYrFizQFu44a3FaDcCFKMtMh5e2CXqh/8Aemldm9wjYgjhzJdyeqhKDCIPJI353HnepBk=; X-YMail-OSG: Jg3Q1lsVM1l1fZEOhX.WIFdrltJjOHzlo.buNzfEqy7GQ9A 81ZT9.hMSOtrTi6SQfUkEAW2f300EdtvygmRkgGb9D_8lWk4L9lKsARMjsKN vfst67dEtW8qkqW7il47uoK.Oi8rSEZth7nFWirLVpHhkDFow_2BL.t_bja. SFFDT5trlDE6NiXMOqZQ6SFMCDaWpG7xRbiTfX2AFb6iy.7nEeuyiijcB666 gt.7PR_I6K_LYM3s3YDfYwPd_YzTV0gH2c4dqqqih_nqUtM7dMISgzqI8UZp XajiSeDnrGX1GENcLeR6_LIEplmRWRoK00aKrd0xB_0KlWfRuT25CMprhqU1 K3mTydhDIktRDylFrVxy6Q3MQAaEDA2CegiVO61TogfdrztFboABKl8T3JDB LSMdqniYpq3Zst2PVnstylyYGhgDov5tl4RKHi3boCcyry_M73mjahnQeB2y MDyE6VARXcVEifaPV5MrBZR2PihUSuU6ZvDHTHlU7RVJZUuYEW8fEfgYhcJ3 HzwisURI9YBAmAN5Jj.1VoC2iPW_MmOxQLHl6Mw8CZ_gLd3aX58ys0UeB0K2 R.BNTFsj7xAdXDCNX4qtN0Zo4vAH0 Received: from [208.114.47.38] by web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 12:40:04 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.113.313619 References: Message-ID: <1313610004.38868.YahooMailNeo@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 12:40:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-563536205-1313610004=:38868" --0-563536205-1313610004=:38868 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al , Mark , Ernest=A0and All,=0A=A0=0A=A0 Perhaps a=A0name change for the p= roblem is in order.............Instead of an=0Aactual "Fuel Vapor Lock" Mar= k's problem can best be described as an "Air=0ALock" in the pressure line= =A0(Or Air Entrapment Lock)..........Ernest's problem=0Aof injectors that l= eak down fuel (into the manifold or the engine with potential=0Aflooding or= the fire hazard of dripping fuel in the cowl) has the same solution =0A(by= pass orifice) either external or internal to the regulator.......Both probl= ems=0Ano matter what you call them can be cured with the same solution.....= ........=0A=A0=0A=A0=A0 =A0Al as for the leaky injectors it would be great = if these things did not wear=0Aover time but they do eventually become unab= le to hold pressure and will=0Aexhibit leak-down at some rate........Unfort= unately the Rotary engine is much=0Amore prone to flooding and hard startin= g if this fuel ends up in the Rotor=0Achamber..........If the primary injec= tors=A0are left in their stock positions and are=0Aleaky this is a direct r= oute to the Rotor............The secondary injectors may=0Aor may not be a = problem depending position and/or manifold design...........=0A=A0=A0 =0A= =A0=A0=A0=A0The bottom line is both potential problems can be averted with = a simple=0Abypass orifice.............As for an actual "Fuel Vapor Lock" as= you say this is=0Aa different problem and can be addressed by careful atte= ntion to fuel pump=0Apositioning (external or in-tank) ,supply tube (or hos= e) size, low restriction=0Afilters to pump inlet, heat shielding if appropr= iate, etc................IMHO=A0=0A=A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (E= ventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplat= e/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft = =0ASent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 1:46 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Denn= is Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter.=0A=0A=0AAl, =0A= =0AYou wrote,"You also test it without the bleed line?"=A0=0A=0AYes, the te= st led to the search for a solution.=A0 You can see the "bypass circuit" on= Egg's fuel system schematic at http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/Manual-= Updates/EarlyManualFuel.html.=A0 This is=A0what I=A0incorporated into my=A0= fuel system, and it solved the problem.=A0 Its been quite a few years now, = but I=A0may still have=A0some of the posts on the Eggenfellner=A0list=A0tha= t occurred in search for this as the final solution.=0A=A0=0AYou wrote,"FWI= W, everything you describe is not vapor lock, has nothing to do with vapor = lock."=A0 =0A=0AAs I said, I'm not sure if my condition fits the definition= of "vapor lock", but that's what someone labeled it, and it stuck.=A0 The = problem is that EFI pumps don't=A0draw or push air very well.=A0 So, if the= flowing fuel is replaced by air due to an empty tank, the pump keeps runni= ng, but essentially=A0stops pumping fuel.=A0 With a 40# spring in the downs= tream circuit, it is virtually impossible for the pump to pass the air=A0ev= en though=A0the selector valve has been swiched to the full tank.=A0 I woul= d agree that the fuel injectors should be able to pass the air, provided th= e prop is still turning.=A0 (This was not the case with my ground test.) Th= e bypass circuit ensures that flow will=A0be restored as soon as the bubble= =A0passes through the pump and=A0the fuel pump regains its prime.=A0 =0A=0A= Mark S.=0A=0AOn Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Al Wick wr= ote:=0A=0A=0A>Instead of speculations, you can actually m= easure how good it is. A pump, clear fuel lines, and water instead of fuel.= Pinch fuel line with pliers to increase pressure drop.=A0 Watch bubbles co= me out of solution. Hear the rattle from pump due to it's inability to flow= air. =0A>If you also put a pressure gage on pump inlet, you can see how fi= ne fuel filter increases risk. You can see how small diameter tubing increa= ses risk, heat, head pressure, etc etc. =0A>=A0=0A>Egg had one forced landing. It was caused by vapor lock. Absolut= ely NOTHING to do with the lack of bleed line. A day later, Jan made it to = the crash site. Pump would not flow fuel until he cracked the line loose. T= his is simply because the inlet to pumps was not wet. He did not understand= this. He just reacted to symptoms. Nothing to do with vapor lock. Remember= , this was crash site. Who knows what attitude plane was at. As I described= , if you screwed up your plumbing from tank to pump, then pump is not self = priming. =0A>=0A>=0A>You also test it without the bleed line? =0A>=0A>FWIW, everything= you describe is not vapor lock, has nothing to do with vapor lock. =0A>=A0= -al wick=0A>=A0=0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>From: Mark Steitle =0A= >>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 9:19 = AM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others= , for that matter.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Al,=0A>>=0A>>I would think that a well-des= igned=A0fuel system=A0with the pumps located as low as possible, in a=A0coo= l area,=A0and=A0a return system=A0should not be troubled with vapor locking= .=A0=A0Although I guess it could happen in Death Valley in=A0August if the = a/c is left out in the sun for 8 hours, and running auto gas.=A0 So far, I = haven't had any problem here in Texas (temps 105* today).=A0 =A0 =0A>>=0A>>= My purpose for installing the bypass circuit was more critical to safe flig= ht.=A0 (The solution was=A0the result of a forced landing, or two,=A0in an = Eggenfellner Subaru installation.)=A0 During ground runs, using a 5-gallon = can, I found that the efi fuel pumps could not restore pressure once the ta= nk had been allowed to run dry.=A0=A0When this occurred, the EFI pump=A0wou= ld suck a big slug of air into the inlet side of the pump, loose pressure,= =A0and being unable to build psi equal to the pressure regulator setting, i= t would stop pumping fuel (vapor lock).=A0 The only way to restore operatio= n was to crack open the system downstream of the pump until the slug of air= could be passed on through the fuel pump.=A0=A0Not sure this meets your de= finiton of "vapor lock", but I think it does, but for a different reason th= an fuel vapor pressure.=0A>>=0A>>I have tested this system on the ground an= d it works as advertized.=A0 If the tank runs dry, switched to a full tank,= the efi pump will restore pressure to the system within a few seconds.=A0 = I urge all builders to run this test on their fuel system to determine whet= her or not their pumps are able to restore pressure after running a tank dr= y.=A0 Or, just don't ever run a tank dry.=0A>>=0A>>Mark S.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>= =A0=0A>>On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Ernest Christley wrote:=0A>>=0A>>Al Wick wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>I'm really concerned for som= e of these fuel designs. The fuel bleed has nothing to do with vapor lock. = Virtually no effect at all.=0A>>>>=A0=0A>>>>=0A>>>I don't know why others a= re doing it, but for me, the bleed has nothing at all to do with vapor lock= . =A0Some conversations have been mixed together, so I can see how that cou= ld be the impression. =A0The point of the pressure bleed is to bleed off th= e pressure after shutdown.=0A>>>=0A>>>I have a strong, positive head pressu= re going into my pumps. =A0They, and the regulator, are about 8" directly b= elow the tank. =A0Excess fuel goes back to the opposite side of the tank fr= om the pickup, and a single line goes forward to feed the injectors. =A0The= fuel lines are arranged such that heat soaking the lines to the point of b= oiling the gas will push liquid fuel down hill and behind the firewall, iso= lating the gaseous gas with its heat at the top of the line. =A0Turning the= pumps on will pressurize the line to 55psi, returning most of the gaseous = fuel back to a liquid state. =A0The ECM is programmed for a longer clearing= pulse on hot start.=0A>>>=0A>>>The point of the bleed is to allow fuel to = move back to the tank. =A0I had the issue of a the pressurized lines being = perfectly sealed. =A0The pressurized fuel was finding the path of least res= istance out, which just happened to be out the injector and into the intake= manifold where it sat as a little puddle. =A0Heat soaking the lines would = not push liquid fuel downhill and back behind the firewall. =A0It would pus= h more fuel into the manifold. =A0A puddle of gas sitting in a composite ma= nifold, just above a hot exhaust stack is just bad mojo. =A0A poorly sealed= regulator allows the pressure to bleed off in about 5 seconds (give or tak= e), isolating the hot fuel in front of the firewall, and keeping the rest c= ool and out of the intake manifold.=0A>>>=0A>>>Got nuthin' to do with vapor= lock.=0A>>>=0A>>>--=0A>>>Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>>>Archi= ve and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l=0A>>>=0A>>=0A=0A--=0AHomepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0AArchive and= UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --0-563536205-1313610004=:38868 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al , Mark , Ernest and All,
 
  Perhaps a&nbs= p;name change for the problem is in order.............Instead of an<= /div>
actual "Fuel Vapor L= ock" Mark's problem can best be described as an "Air
Lock" in the pressur= e line (Or Air Entrapment Lock)..........Ernest's problem
of injectors that le= ak down fuel (into the manifold or the engine with potential
flooding or the fire= hazard of dripping fuel in the cowl) has the same solution
(bypass orifice) either external or internal to the re= gulator.......Both problems
no matter what you c= all them can be cured with the same solution.............
 
    A= l as for the leaky injectors it would be great if these things did not wear=
over time but they d= o eventually become unable to hold pressure and will
exhibit leak-down at some rate........Unfortunately the Rotary engine is much
more prone to floodi= ng and hard starting if this fuel ends up in the Rotor
chamber..........If = the primary injectors are left in their stock positions and are=
leaky this is a dire= ct route to the Rotor............The secondary injectors may
or may not be a prob= lem depending position and/or manifold design...........
   =
   &n= bsp;The bottom line is both potential problems can be averted with a simple
bypass orifice.............As for an actual "Fuel Vap= or Lock" as you say this is
a different problem = and can be addressed by careful attention to fuel pump
positioning (externa= l or filters to pump inle= t, heat shielding if <= SPAN>appropriate, etc................IMHO 
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, Aug= ust 17, 2011 1:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis = Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter.

Al,
 
You wrote,"You also test it without the bleed line?"&= nbsp;
 
Yes, the test led to the search for a solution.  You can see the = "bypass circuit" on Egg's fuel system schematic at http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/Manual-Updates/EarlyMan= ualFuel.html.  This is what I incorporated into my = fuel system, and it solved the problem.  Its been quite a few years no= w, but I may still have some of the posts on the Eggenfellner list tha= t occurred in search for this as the final solution.
 
You wrote= ,"FWIW, e= verything you describe is not vapor lock, has nothing to do with vapor lock= ." 
 
As I said, I'm not sure if my condition fits the definition of "vapor = lock", but that's what someone labeled it, and it stuck.  The problem = is that EFI pum= ps don't draw or push air very well.  So, if the flowing fuel is = replaced by air due to an empty tank, the pump keeps running, but essential= ly stops pumping fuel.  With a 40# spring in the downstream circu= it, it is virtually impossible for the pump to pass the air even thoug= h the selector valve has been swiched to the full tank.  I would agree that the = fuel injectors should be able to pass the air, provided the prop is still t= urning.  (This was not the case with my ground test.) The bypass circu= it ensures that flow will be restored as soon as the bubble passe= s through the pump and the fuel pump regains its prime. 
 
Mark S.

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Al W= ick <alwick@juno.com> wrote:
<I would think that a well-designed fuel system with the pumps loca= ted as low as possible
 
Instead of speculations, you can actually = measure how good it is. A pump, clear fuel lines, and water instead of fuel= . Pinch fuel line with pliers to increase pressure drop.  Watch bubble= s come out of solution. Hear the rattle from pump due to it's inability to = flow air.
If you also put a pressure gage on pump in= let, you can see how fine fuel filter increases risk. You can see how small= diameter tubing increases risk, heat, head pressure, etc etc.
 
<the result of a forced landing
Egg had one forced landing. It was caused by vapor lock. Absolutely NO= THING to do with the lack of bleed line. A day later, Jan made it to the cr= ash site. Pump would not flow fuel until he cracked the line loose. This is= simply because the inlet to pumps was not wet. He did not understand this.= He just reacted to symptoms. Nothing to do with vapor lock. Remember, this= was crash site. Who knows what attitude plane was at. As I described, if y= ou screwed up your plumbing from tank to pump, then pump is not self primin= g.
 
<tested this system on the ground and it works as advertized
You also test it without the bleed line?
 
FWIW, everything you describe is not vapor lock, has noth= ing to do with vapor lock.
 
-al wick
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 9:1= 9 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel Syste= m...or any others, for that matter.

Al,
 
I would think that a well-designed fuel system with the pump= s located as low as possible, in a cool area, and a return s= ystem should not be troubled with vapor locking.  Although I= guess it could happen in Death Valley in August if the a/c is left ou= t in the sun for 8 hours, and running auto gas.  So far, I haven't had= any problem here in Texas (temps 105* today).   
 
My purpose for installing the bypass circuit was more critical to safe= flight.  (The solution was the result of a forced landing, or tw= o, in an Eggenfellner Subaru installation.)  During ground runs, using a 5-gallo= n can, I found that the efi fuel pumps could not restore pressure once the tank had been a= llowed to run dry.  When this occurred, the EFI pump would suck a big slug = of air into the inlet side of the pump, loose pressure, and being unab= le to build psi equal to the pressure regulator setting, it would stop pump= ing fuel (vapor lock).  The only way to restore operation was to crack= open the system downstream of the pump until the slug of air could be pass= ed on through the fuel pump.  Not sure this meets your definiton of "vapor = lock", but I think it does, but for a different reason than fuel vapor pres= sure.
 
I have tested this system on the ground and it works as advertized.  If the tank= runs dry, switched to a full tank, the efi pump will restore pressure to the system withi= n a few seconds.  I urge all builders to run this test on their fuel s= ystem to determine whether or not their pumps are able to restore pressure = after running a tank dry.  Or, just don't ever run a tank dry.
 
Mark S.


 
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Erne= st Christley <echristley@att.net>= ; wrote:
Al Wick wrote:
I'm really concerned f= or some of these fuel designs. The fuel bleed has nothing to do with vapor = lock. Virtually no effect at all.
 

I don= 't know why others are doing it, but for me, the bleed has nothing at all t= o do with vapor lock.  Some conversations have been mixed together, so= I can see how that could be the impression.  The point of the pressur= e bleed is to bleed off the pressure after shutdown.

I have a strong= , positive head pressure going into my pumps.  They, and the regulator= , are about 8" directly below the tank.  Excess fuel goes back to the = opposite side of the tank from the pickup, and a single line goes forward t= o feed the injectors.  The fuel lines are arranged such that heat soak= ing the lines to the point of boiling the gas will push liquid fuel down hill and behind the firewall, isolating the gaseous gas with its heat at t= he top of the line.  Turning the pumps on will pressurize the line to = 55psi, returning most of the gaseous fuel back to a liquid state.  The= ECM is program= med for a longer clearing pulse on hot start.

The point of the bleed= is to allow fuel to move back to the tank.  I had the issue of a the = pressurized lines being perfectly sealed.  The pressurized fuel was fi= nding the path of least resistance out, which just happened to be out the i= njector and into the intake manifold where it sat as a little puddle.  = ;Heat soaking the lines would not push liquid fuel downhill and back behind= the firewall.  It would push more fuel into the manifold.  A pud= dle of gas sitting in a composite manifold, just above a hot exhaust stack = is just bad mojo.  A poorly sealed regulator allow= s the pressure to bleed off in about 5 seconds (give or take), isolating th= e hot fuel in front of the firewall, and keeping the rest cool and out of t= he intake manifold.

Got nuthin' to do with vapor lock.
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
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