X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-yx0-f180.google.com ([209.85.213.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5081146 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 19:57:52 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.180; envelope-from=editor.contactmagazine@gmail.com Received: by yxi11 with SMTP id 11so945370yxi.25 for ; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:57:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=kQijJ1Te8e9520uYNbDk8ehVLRadfMG4CfMc1wDVoXI=; b=mY0O4nOKvc+w/B7EAGmOPLw7P5iAGNjlFKffMIfXsSyheFkvmLNw0ZvEy6Z5d9uL6G uOt5eEXIjUo/qdkXnf0YMvKNfxOVO4m2KX+V4nRuQ9fjC6g9lKbKtB1TRrRT3lz23mOT 51Vi67NZryAPbEArZb7jvEJNK3B9MOnSTwAsA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.157.3 with SMTP id n3mr235007yhk.5.1312415837359; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.207.5 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: panzera@experimental-aviation.com In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:57:17 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ross Farnham IVO testing From: Pat Panzera To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf303f6372c88e2b04a9a29f6b --20cf303f6372c88e2b04a9a29f6b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not pitching the Elippse prop, as much as the concepts behind it. It's all explained in the articles I sent, which should make it very clear just how inefficient the IVO is. On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Pat, > Yes I am well aware of the''Elippse" props and have been following them > closely...........If I ever get this > thing off the ground and flying either a fixed pitch or possibly a consta= nt > speed version with Paul's blade > profile would be my next choice............... > > Best Regards, > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > *From:* Pat Panzera > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 3, 2011 6:22 PM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ross Farnham IVO testing > > Read these: > http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-02_elippse.asp > http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-09_lipps.asp > http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2009-07_phantom.asp > > > But there's a lot to be said about looking cool. > > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > Pat, > Your point is well taken..............In my case I am not taking coolin= g > air from behind the prop > and my engine cowl will taper directly to the 16 inch spinner plus the > entire cowl and spinner > are considered lift producing on the Dyke Delta............Plus for me th= e > esthetics's of the cowl > and spinner please me (looks cool)................<:) > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > *From:* Pat Panzera > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 3, 2011 3:00 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ross Farnham IVO testing > > Every part of ever aircraft can do one or more of the following. > It can add weight > It can add drag > It can add lift. > > Thrust is a form of lift, especially when produced by a propeller. > Drag can be on the airframe or the engine, and is a bad thing. > Weight ultimately causes drag. > > So... if you have to carry around the extra weight of the first 16 inches > of a 72" prop, why would you want to cover it up? Why not have at least h= alf > of that 16 inches produce forward thrust? ...or at a minimum, help cool t= he > engine? > > The large spinner is at best a band-aid, that will cause aerodynamic drag > in order to shield the aerodynamic drag from a honorably designed propell= er, > that causes drag on the engine (shielded or not) and additional weight on > the aircraft. > > I suppose that if you MUST use the IVOPROP, then this is an effective way > to minimize the negative effects of using the prop, but by far, the > tradeoff just isn't worth it. > > The allure of in-flight adjustability is understandable, but in reality, > it's difficult to beat a properly designed fixed-pitch prop. > > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > Doug, Pat and All, > > When Tracy tested the "IVO" against his "Performance Prop" he > gained a lot in takeoff and climb > performance but lost considerable top speed and coolant temp went > up.............He attributed both the > speed loss and higher coolant temps to the flat hub area of the "IVO" > blades which his spinner did not > cover (added drag) and essentially blocked some coolant air from his > radiators................This flat area > also as has been noted sucks up hp but produces no thrust.............. > > I have a three blade 74 inch electric in-flight adjust "IVO" > prop for my "Dyke Delta" that if I live long > enough to get in the air will have a 16 inch diameter "Mustang 2" spinne= r > which will cover most of this > flat area of the "IVO" blade hub.............The "IVO" seems to work well > in the pushers from all reports > since the flat blade hubs are mostly shielded by the engine cowl in these > installations............IMHO > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > *From:* Pat Panzera > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 2, 2011 8:48 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ross Farnham IVO testing > > Jim Smith with his 150 HP, auto-fuel RV-6 is reaching speeds of 200 mph > TAS using a fixed-pitch, three-blade wood Elippse propeller. > > That's nearly 30 mph more than the Ivo, on the same? power. > > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 6:18 PM, wrote: > > http://www.sdsefi.com/rv13.htm > > Ross did quite a bit of prop testing in turbo subie powered RV-6. I've > e-mailed him a few times regarding performance, mx issues, etc. and he > still thinks it's a good way to go as long as the Magnum hi pitch blades = are > used (at least for a/c w/RV type performance). > Sent on the Sprint=AE Now Network from my BlackBerry=AE > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > > > > > --20cf303f6372c88e2b04a9a29f6b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not pitching the Elippse prop, as much as the concepts behind it. I= t's all=A0explained=A0in the articles I sent, which should make it very= clear just how=A0inefficient=A0the IVO is.=A0

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> wrote:
Pat,
=A0 Yes I am well aware of the''Elippse" props and = have been following them closely...........If I ever get this
thing off the ground and flying either a fixed pitch or possibly= a constant speed version=A0with Paul's blade
profile would be my next choice...............=
=A0
Best Regards,
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
&quo= t;MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Pat Panzera <= edito= r.contactmagazine@gmail.com>
= To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, Augus= t 3, 2011 6:22 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ross Farnham IVO testin= g

Read these:


But there's a lot to be said about looking cool.



On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@at= t.net> wrote:
Pat,
=A0 Your point is well taken..............In my case I am not ta= king cooling air from behind the prop
and my engine cowl will taper directly to the 16 inch spinner pl= us the entire cowl and spinner
are considered lift producing on the Dyke Delta....= ........Plus for me the esthetics's of the cowl
and spinner please me (looks cool)................<:)<= /div>
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2&= quot; (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC= 2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Pat Panzer= a <editor.contactmagazine@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2= 011 3:00 PM
Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: Ross Farnham IVO testing

Every part of ever aircraft can do one or more of the following.=20
It can add weight
It can add drag
It can add lift.

Thrust is a form of lift, especially when produced by a propeller.=A0<= /div>
Drag can be on the=A0airframe=A0or the engine, and is a bad thing.
Weight ultimately causes drag.

So... if you have to carry around the extra weight of the first 16 inc= hes of a 72" prop, why would you want to cover it up? Why not have at = least half of that 16 inches produce forward thrust? ...or at a minimum, he= lp cool the engine?

The large spinner is at best a band-aid, that will cause aerodynamic d= rag in order to=A0shield=A0the aerodynamic drag from a=A0honorably=A0design= ed=A0propeller, that causes drag on the engine (shielded=A0or not) and addi= tional weight on the aircraft.

I suppose that if you MUST use the IVOPROP, then this is = an effective way to minimize the negative effects of using the prop, but by= far, the tradeoff just isn't worth it.

The=A0allure=A0of in-flight=A0adjustability is understand= able, but in reality, it's difficult to beat a properly designed fixed-= pitch prop.


On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@at= t.net> wrote:
Doug, Pat and All,
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 When Tracy tested the "IVO" against his "Performance = Prop" he gained a lot in takeoff and climb
performance but lost considerable top speed and coolant temp wen= t up.............He attributed=A0both the<= /div>
speed loss and higher coolant temps to= the flat hub area of the "IVO" blades which his spinner did not
cover (added drag) and essentially blocked some coolant air from= his radiators................This flat area
also as has been noted sucks up hp but produces no thrust.......= .......
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have a three blade 74 inch electric in-flight adjust "IVO" prop=A0for my "Dyke= Delta"=A0that if I live long
enough to get in the air will have a 16 inch diameter=A0 "M= ustang 2" spinner which will cover most of this
flat area of the "IVO" blade hub.............The "IVO= " seems to work well in the pushers from all reports
since the flat blade hubs are=A0mostly=A0shiel= ded by the engine cowl in these installations.........= ...IMHO=A0
=A0
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE= DELTA JD2" (Event= ually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_<= span>Backplate/Oil Manifold
"TURBONETICS&= quot;_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Pat = Panzera <editor.cont= actmagazine@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraf= t <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2011 8:48 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ross Farnham IVO testing

Jim Smith with his 150 HP, auto-fuel RV-6 i= s reaching speeds of 200 mph TAS using a fixed-pitch, three-blade wood Eli= ppse propeller.=20

That's nearly 30 mph more than the = Ivo, on the same? power.=A0<= /div>


On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 6:18 PM, <dlomheim@aol.com= > wrote:
http://www.sdsefi.com/rv13.htm

Ross did quite= a bit of prop testing in turbo subie= powered RV-6. =A0I've e-mailed him a few times regarding= performance, mx issues= , etc. and he still thinks it's a good way to go as long as the Magnum = hi pitch blades are used (at least for a/c w/RV type performance).
Sent on the Sprint=AE Now Network from my BlackBerr= y=AE
--
Homepage:= =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyr= otary/List.html



<= /div>







--20cf303f6372c88e2b04a9a29f6b--