X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ey0-f180.google.com ([209.85.215.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTPS id 5053244 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:51:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.180; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by eyg24 with SMTP id 24so1269826eyg.11 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:50:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=0Z1ppjCJNTyBJEogcKGs9uvAO0vbajfDHZrqCWjYvoI=; b=UBAh3vA430jl7UgLzdLowuXxQ+Be1EdXO8Qmd7dS575jYDYGHWzFqXdmUQiEe62fbV SslROhZjAmk+upQRUOZkYVaTn3lot8tL/TEKaDWSILLaQ89pWVRqVUxR5mhIjk2s85zn ESQLD1ZGwL5qiqzfwMoGzvFqUG0CXXc+tnXNg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.7.20 with SMTP id b20mr414928ebb.70.1310770246892; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.27.208 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:50:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 15:50:46 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex Plate Failure - Improvements From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c1a24f2beaa04a8237aaa --0015174c1a24f2beaa04a8237aaa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for chiming in Tracy. I have also thought about making an intermediate plate for the RX8 flex plate, so far I am inclined to go with = a flywheel, but adapting the RX8 flex plate is gaining ground in my mind. As far as light weight steel fly wheels, mazdatrix sells one that weighs 18 lbs (including counter weight) and costs $350, and Kelly Troyer found (and bought) one on the Internet that weighs 13.8 lbs and is made of chome-molly-b and sells for $205. Of course, looks like either would require the addition of another ring gear weighing a couple pounds and costing $80. I'll wait to hear Kelly's report on the flywheel he bought. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Tracy wrote: > I'm still in analysis mode on this myself. > > So far the possibilities are: > > 1. The flex plate may have been warped when installed ( I bought several > that were) I think the standard should be close to zero runout or wobble= on > the flexplate in view of this failure. > > 2. The flexplate could have had cracks when installed (I also bought > several that had cracks and they were not visible unless you looked close= ly) > > 3. The dang things (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough for boosted > 13Bs or 20Bs. > > I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft. The > RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one. There is no thrust l= oad > at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the drive. Thi= s > was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first. > > I have over 1000 hours on the same flexplate on my NA 13B. I have only 5= 5 > hours on the 20B. But I'll be checking both. I did inspect both > flexplates VERY carefully before installing. > > If I found that a change were necessary, I would consider two > possibilities. > > 1. Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an auto > counterweight. (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such a > thing) > > 2. Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made of aluminum or steel > sheet to go between the flexplate and damper. The RX-8 version looks > stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplates > were getting hard to find. I did not develop a formal procedure for doi= ng > this but it looked like it would be pretty easy. Anybody with spare time > out there want to take a closer look? Hint: The damper bolt pattern wo= uld > be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt pattern. > > Tracy Crook, RWS > > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. Hughes wrote= : > >> ****** >> >> Bill summed up what I=92ve been thinking the last few days. I=92m not ch= anging >> anything until ****Tracy**** makes a recommendation. It could be fore an= d >> aft movement on the shaft, flex plate out of round, worn rubber isolator= s or >> a combination of all these items. We may need a scheduled maintenance pl= an >> to replace items like the rubber isolators or other items that wear and >> loosen tolerances.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> I will however be inspecting for this problem before most flights. **** >> >> ** ** >> >> Bobby Hughes**** >> >> (playing with fiberglass again)**** >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t] >> *On Behalf Of *Bill Bradburry >> *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 10:03 AM >> *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel >> measurements**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> David,**** >> >> ** ** >> >> I can=92t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not >> broken. I realize that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that >> doesn=92t mean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem. That fle= xplate >> holds up quite well in the car with a heavy torque converter attached to >> it. Think of the forces when a car under heavy acceleration changes gea= r! >> As long as the forces are along the plane of the plate it is very strong= . >> Not so much in the forward/rearward directions. In fact that would caus= e >> metal fatigue and cause it to break just like yours did. I think that w= hat >> ever is causing the endplay is what you should be looking at. I suspect >> that if you check out the transmission on the car you will find that the >> endplay of the input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such >> device. ****Lynn**** may know the answer to this??**** >> >> ** ** >> >> That msg from Al Wick really resonates with me. ****Tracy**** had to >> install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bot= tom >> of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engin= e. >> Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that = will >> trap the shaft end play completely. That, to me, makes more sense than >> adding a bigger flywheel. If you strengthen the weak spot, you will the= n >> discover where the next weakest spot is because that will be the next >> failure! **** >> >> ** ** >> >> This is a real opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same >> drive. Please study this a little more before you begin the fix!**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Bill B**** >> >> ** ** >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t] >> *On Behalf Of *David Leonard >> *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 12:42 AM >> *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements**= * >> * >> >> ** ** >> >> I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and th= e >> remains of my S5 flexplate. The results are very encouraging, even as g= ood >> as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at the >> hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so the= y >> are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees. The height >> measurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, = mine >> is all warped and broken. >> >> *Ring Gear Diameter* - Perfect fit. As we suspected, same size, same >> tooth spacing. >> >> *Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement* - As measured from the underside of the >> big nut. (for all further reference, aft means aft in the CAR). The fle= x >> plate puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.290 inches from the front of = the >> big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913. So the flex plate puts the ring ge= ar >> (appx) 0.377 in. further aft. This is actually fortuitous because it ju= st >> so happens that the ring gear thickness is .365 ... So all we have to= do >> to fix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel >> ring gear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of = the >> page.. the cost $80) >> http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm >> It may also be possible to fix the discrepancy by changing the starter..= . >> will look into that. >> >> *Damper Plate Placement* - On the flywheel, the mounting surface is prou= d >> (or aft) of the ring gear. On the flex plate, the mounting surface is >> recessed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it all pretty much works o= ut. >> That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which flyw= heel >> you have and how much wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But on m= y (I >> assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate = was >> 0.950. Pretty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant = to >> be right on. Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the >> spline on the damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two= . >> >> So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go. Stout, easy to get, pick yo= ur >> weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on = a >> second gear ring. >> >> -- >> David Leonard >> >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >> http://RotaryRoster.net **** >> > > --0015174c1a24f2beaa04a8237aaa Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for chiming in Tracy.=A0 I have also thought about making an in= termediate plate for the RX8 flex plate, so far I am inclined to go with a = flywheel, but adapting the RX8 flex plate is gaining ground in my mind.
=A0
As far as light weight steel fly wheels, mazdatrix sells one that weig= hs=A018 lbs (including counter weight)=A0and costs $350, and Kelly Troyer f= ound=A0(and bought) one on the Internet that weighs=A013.8 lbs and is made = of chome-molly-b and sells for $205.=A0 Of course, looks like either would = require the addition of another ring gear weighing a couple pounds and cost= ing $80.=A0 I'll wait to hear Kelly's report on the flywheel he bou= ght.
=A0
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
I'm still in analysis mode o= n this myself.

So far the possibilities are:

1. The flex plat= e may have been warped when installed=A0 ( I bought several that were)=A0 I= think the standard should be close to zero runout or wobble on the flexpla= te in view of this failure.

2.=A0 The flexplate could have had cracks when installed=A0 (I also bou= ght several that had cracks and they were not visible unless you looked clo= sely)

3.=A0 The dang things (RX-7 flexplates) are not strong enough = for boosted 13Bs or 20Bs.=A0

I do NOT think the problem is fore & aft travel of the input shaft.= =A0 The RD-1x drives have had thrust bearings from day one.=A0 There is no = thrust load at all on the damper, flexplate or crankshaft imposed by the dr= ive.=A0=A0 This was not the case with the Ross drive I used at first.

I have over 1000 hours on the same flexplate on my NA 13B.=A0 I have on= ly 55 hours on the 20B.=A0=A0 But I'll be checking both.=A0 I did inspe= ct both flexplates VERY carefully before installing.=A0

If I found = that a change were necessary, I would consider two possibilities.

1.=A0 Use a modified aluminum racing flywheel used with an auto counter= weight.=A0 (Or possibly a lightweight steel one if there is such a thing)
2.=A0 Use an RX-8 flexplate with an adapter plate made of aluminum or= steel sheet to go between the flexplate and damper.=A0 The RX-8 version lo= oks stronger than the RX-7. I briefly studied this when good RX-7 flexplate= s were getting hard to find. =A0 I did not develop a formal procedure for d= oing this but it looked like it would be pretty easy.=A0 Anybody with spare= time out there want to take a closer look?=A0 Hint: =A0 The damper bolt pa= ttern would be offset 45 degrees from the RX-8 torque converter bolt patter= n.
=A0
Tracy Crook,=A0=A0 RWS=20


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Bobby J. Hughes= <bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:

Bill summed up = what I=92ve been thinking the last few days. I=92m not changing anything un= til Tracy makes a recommendation. It could be f= ore and aft movement on the shaft, flex plate out of round, worn rubber iso= lators or a combination of all these items. We may need a scheduled mainten= ance plan to replace items like the rubber isolators or other items that we= ar and loosen tolerances.

=A0

=A0

=A0I will howev= er be inspecting for this problem before most flights.

=A0

Bobby Hughes=

=A0(playing with fiberg= lass again)

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net] On Behalf Of Bi= ll Bradburry
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011= 10:03 AM
To: Rot= ary motors in aircraft
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measureme= nts

=A0

=A0

David,

=A0

I can=92t help = but think that you may be fixing something that is not broken.=A0 I realize= that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that doesn=92t mean that = the flexplate is the cause of the problem.=A0 That flexplate holds up quite= well in the car with a heavy torque converter attached to it.=A0 Think of = the forces when a car under heavy acceleration changes gear! As long as the= forces are along the plane of the plate it is very strong.=A0 Not so much = in the forward/rearward directions.=A0 In fact that would cause metal fatig= ue and cause it to break just like yours did.=A0 I think that what ever is = causing the endplay is what you should be looking at.=A0 I suspect that if = you check out the transmission on the car you will find that the endplay of= the input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such device.=A0 <= u>Lynn may know the answer to this??=

=A0

That msg from A= l Wick really resonates with me.=A0 Tracy had t= o install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bott= om of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engin= e.=A0 Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing th= at will trap the shaft end play completely.=A0 That, to me, makes more sens= e than adding a bigger flywheel.=A0 If you strengthen the weak spot, you wi= ll then discover where the next weakest spot is because that will be the ne= xt failure!=A0

=A0

This is a real = opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive.=A0 Please study= this a little more before you begin the fix!

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net] On Behalf Of Da= vid Leonard
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011= 12:42 AM
To: Rot= ary motors in aircraft
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements<= /span>

=A0

I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 tu= rbo flywheel and the remains of my S5 flexplate.=A0 The results are very en= couraging, even as good as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I on= ly had ten min at the hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter f= rom daycare, so they are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantee= s.=A0 The height measurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect b= ecause, well, mine is all warped and broken.

Ring Gear Diameter - Pe= rfect fit.=A0 As we suspected, same size, same tooth spacing.

Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement - As= measured from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, af= t means aft in the CAR).=A0 The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring ge= ar 1.290 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.= =A0 So the flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.=A0 T= his is actually fortuitous because it just so happens that the ring gear th= ickness is .365 ...=A0=A0=A0 So all we have to do to fix the discrepancy is= weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring gear and there will be= teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.. the cost $80)
http://mazd= atrix.com/flywheel.htm
It may also be possible to fix the discrepanc= y by changing the starter... will look into that.

Damper Plate Placement - On the flywheel, the= mounting surface is proud (or aft) of the ring gear.=A0 On the flex plate,= the mounting surface is recessed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it a= ll pretty much works out.=A0 That position on the flywheel will vary somewh= at depending on which flywheel you have and how much wear you have on the c= lutch slip surface. But on my (I assume well-worn) flywheel the placement w= as 0.965 while the flex plate was 0.950.=A0 Pretty damn close and given mea= surement error it might me meant to be right on.=A0 Or, any difference coul= d be made up by trimming down the spline on the damper plate or removing or= adding spacers between the two.

So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.=A0 Stout, easy to get, pick= your weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding = on a second gear ring.

--
David Leonard<= br>
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net




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