X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ew0-f52.google.com ([209.85.215.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTPS id 5053006 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 14:11:38 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.52; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by ewy28 with SMTP id 28so768016ewy.25 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:11:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=jUDagDaGVTuRtvG6I+eSLkdfWILGuosYuydFU1bdL4Q=; b=HEZjNQqCg+NT7AhG4PaU2jb4RrjVH9qx+GUWB0xFPLrJ/zY2lB5ZyJmhNs4muP5wJM oa/1c5J90ZobdGJ6yvvMOmi+SM3Q4eJPJjUqabdtdcaUwAM8vTw5KEKk8KtC5z008EFT xY74oi6a7MfUf29A/r3RsGoC9rgcU0ff5Fi04= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.7.20 with SMTP id b20mr341276ebb.70.1310753461153; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.27.208 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:11:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:11:01 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c1a2470b1b804a81f9289 --0015174c1a2470b1b804a81f9289 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, I am not sure what you mean by end play. The drive's input shaft has thrus= t bearings to prevent any forces other than rotation from being transmitted t= o the flex plate. The only forward-rearward forces on the flex plate are the gyroscopic forces, and I cant do anything about that other than beef up the plate. Also, just because it holds up in the car (usually) does not mean it is suited for aircraft. The auto flex plate was only used in 160 h.p. normally aspirated cars with a very low duty cycle and minimal gyroscopic forces. With the RX-8 they obviously felt they needed to beef i= t up. They made it thicker and got rid of the lightening holes that were the starting point for all my cracks. Also that torque converter in the ca= r you mention may help to stabilize the flex plate. Someone else has also pointed out the twisting moment of the damper bolts onto the plate. A thicker fly wheel it the only thing I can think of to mitigate that. The RX8 flex plate would be a big improvement, but it wont readily fit. Fortunately, the light weight fly wheel will not be too difficult to adapt, and the extra rotational weight will only help to further dampen the power pulses. It will put some additional stress on the e-shaft.. but that thin= g has a very good durability record. In e-shafts we trust.. Thanks for the input though! --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Bill Bradburry w= rote: > ****** > > ** ** > > David,**** > > ** ** > > I can=92t help but think that you may be fixing something that is not > broken. I realize that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that > doesn=92t mean that the flexplate is the cause of the problem. That flex= plate > holds up quite well in the car with a heavy torque converter attached to > it. Think of the forces when a car under heavy acceleration changes gear= ! > As long as the forces are along the plane of the plate it is very strong. > Not so much in the forward/rearward directions. In fact that would cause > metal fatigue and cause it to break just like yours did. I think that wh= at > ever is causing the endplay is what you should be looking at. I suspect > that if you check out the transmission on the car you will find that the > endplay of the input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such > device. ****Lynn**** may know the answer to this??**** > > ** ** > > That msg from Al Wick really resonates with me. ****Tracy**** had to > install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bott= om > of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engine= . > Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing that w= ill > trap the shaft end play completely. That, to me, makes more sense than > adding a bigger flywheel. If you strengthen the weak spot, you will then > discover where the next weakest spot is because that will be the next > failure! **** > > ** ** > > This is a real opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive= . > Please study this a little more before you begin the fix!**** > > ** ** > > Bill B**** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] > *On Behalf Of *David Leonard > *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2011 12:42 AM > *To:* **Rotary motors in aircraft** > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements***= * > > ** ** > > I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 turbo flywheel and the > remains of my S5 flexplate. The results are very encouraging, even as go= od > as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I only had ten min at the > hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter from daycare, so they > are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantees. The height > measurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect because, well, m= ine > is all warped and broken. > > *Ring Gear Diameter* - Perfect fit. As we suspected, same size, same > tooth spacing. > > *Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement* - As measured from the underside of the bi= g > nut. (for all further reference, aft means aft in the CAR). The flex pla= te > puts the aft side of the ring gear 1.290 inches from the front of the big > nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913. So the flex plate puts the ring gear > (appx) 0.377 in. further aft. This is actually fortuitous because it jus= t > so happens that the ring gear thickness is .365 ... So all we have to = do > to fix the discrepancy is weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel > ring gear and there will be teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of t= he > page.. the cost $80) > http://mazdatrix.com/flywheel.htm > It may also be possible to fix the discrepancy by changing the starter... > will look into that. > > *Damper Plate Placement* - On the flywheel, the mounting surface is proud > (or aft) of the ring gear. On the flex plate, the mounting surface is > recessed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it all pretty much works ou= t. > That position on the flywheel will vary somewhat depending on which flywh= eel > you have and how much wear you have on the clutch slip surface. But on my= (I > assume well-worn) flywheel the placement was 0.965 while the flex plate w= as > 0.950. Pretty damn close and given measurement error it might me meant t= o > be right on. Or, any difference could be made up by trimming down the > spline on the damper plate or removing or adding spacers between the two. > > So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go. Stout, easy to get, pick you= r > weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding on a > second gear ring. > > -- > David Leonard > > Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY > http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net > http://RotaryRoster.net **** > --0015174c1a2470b1b804a81f9289 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
I am not sure what you mean by end play.=A0 The drive's input shaf= t has thrust bearings to prevent any forces other than rotation from being = transmitted to the flex plate.=A0 The only forward-rearward forces on the f= lex plate are the gyroscopic forces, and I cant do anything about that othe= r than beef up the plate.=A0=A0 Also, just because it holds up in the car (= usually) does not mean it is suited for aircraft.=A0 The auto flex plate wa= s only used in 160 h.p.=A0normally aspirated cars with a very low duty cycl= e and minimal gyroscopic forces.=A0 With the RX-8 they obviously felt they = needed to beef it up.=A0=A0=A0 They made it thicker and got rid of the ligh= tening holes that were the=A0starting point for all my cracks.=A0 Also that= torque converter=A0in the car you mention=A0may help to stabilize the flex= plate.=A0 Someone else has also pointed out the twisting moment of the dam= per bolts onto the plate.=A0 A thicker fly wheel it the only thing I can th= ink of to mitigate that.=A0 The RX8 flex plate would be a big improvement, = but it wont readily fit.=A0 Fortunately, the light weight fly wheel will no= t be too difficult to adapt, and the extra rotational weight will only help= to further dampen the power pulses.=A0 It will put some additional stress = on the e-shaft..=A0 but that thing has a very good durability record.=A0 In= e-shafts we trust..
=A0
Thanks for the input though!

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Bill Bradburry = <bbradburr= y@bellsouth.net> wrote:

=A0

David,

=A0

I can=92t help = but think that you may be fixing something that is not broken.=A0 I realize= that the flexplate came apart on your plane, but that doesn=92t mean that = the flexplate is the cause of the problem.=A0 That flexplate holds up quite= well in the car with a heavy torque converter attached to it.=A0 Think of = the forces when a car under heavy acceleration changes gear! As long as the= forces are along the plane of the plate it is very strong.=A0 Not so much = in the forward/rearward directions.=A0 In fact that would cause metal fatig= ue and cause it to break just like yours did.=A0 I think that what ever is = causing the endplay is what you should be looking at.=A0 I suspect that if = you check out the transmission on the car you will find that the endplay of= the input shaft is controlled by thrust bearings or some such device.=A0 <= u>Lynn may know the answer to this??=

=A0

That msg from A= l Wick really resonates with me.=A0 Tracy had t= o install a thrust bearing to prevent the drive shaft from hitting the bott= om of the pilot bearing and causing an eccentric shaft failure on the engin= e.=A0 Maybe you now need to add a cage similar to what Al was discussing th= at will trap the shaft end play completely.=A0 That, to me, makes more sens= e than adding a bigger flywheel.=A0 If you strengthen the weak spot, you wi= ll then discover where the next weakest spot is because that will be the ne= xt failure!=A0

=A0

This is a real = opportunity for you and the rest of us with the same drive.=A0 Please study= this a little more before you begin the fix!

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net] On Behalf Of Da= vid Leonard
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011= 12:42 AM
To: Rot= ary motors in aircraft
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Ok Here are the important flywheel measurements<= /span>

=A0

I finally got to the hangar and measured out my S5 tu= rbo flywheel and the remains of my S5 flexplate.=A0 The results are very en= couraging, even as good as the possibly could be to make the swap, but I on= ly had ten min at the hangar before I had to leave to pick up my daughter f= rom daycare, so they are one try and slightly sloppy... I make no guarantee= s.=A0 The height measurements of the flex plate were particularly suspect b= ecause, well, mine is all warped and broken.

Ring Gear Diameter - Pe= rfect fit.=A0 As we suspected, same size, same tooth spacing.

Ring Gear Fore-Aft Placement - As= measured from the underside of the big nut. (for all further reference, af= t means aft in the CAR).=A0 The flex plate puts the aft side of the ring ge= ar 1.290 inches from the front of the big nut. The flywheel puts it 0.913.= =A0 So the flex plate puts the ring gear (appx) 0.377 in. further aft.=A0 T= his is actually fortuitous because it just so happens that the ring gear th= ickness is .365 ...=A0=A0=A0 So all we have to do to fix the discrepancy is= weld and extra ring gears onto to the flywheel ring gear and there will be= teeth that the starter can reach:(bottom of the page.. the cost $80)
http://mazd= atrix.com/flywheel.htm
It may also be possible to fix the discrepanc= y by changing the starter... will look into that.

Damper Plate Placement - On the flywheel, the= mounting surface is proud (or aft) of the ring gear.=A0 On the flex plate,= the mounting surface is recessed (or forward) from the ring gear. And it a= ll pretty much works out.=A0 That position on the flywheel will vary somewh= at depending on which flywheel you have and how much wear you have on the c= lutch slip surface. But on my (I assume well-worn) flywheel the placement w= as 0.965 while the flex plate was 0.950.=A0 Pretty damn close and given mea= surement error it might me meant to be right on.=A0 Or, any difference coul= d be made up by trimming down the spline on the damper plate or removing or= adding spacers between the two.

So in my mind, a flywheel is the way to go.=A0 Stout, easy to get, pick= your weight, only mods seem to be drilling the mounting holes and welding = on a second gear ring.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6= N4VY
http://N4VY.Rot= aryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net




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