X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-mb01.mx.aol.com ([64.12.207.164] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5027477 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:50:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.207.164; envelope-from=Bktrub@aol.com Received: from imo-ma01.mx.aol.com (imo-ma01.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.136]) by imr-mb01.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p5LEo5Z5025619 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:50:05 -0400 Received: from Bktrub@aol.com by imo-ma01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.1094.85e44c9 (56033) for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-me01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-me01.mx.aol.com [64.12.95.102]) by cia-md08.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD087-b2b64e00af94368; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:50:00 -0400 Received: from webmail-d091 (webmail-d091.sim.aol.com [205.188.255.2]) by smtprly-me01.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYME018-b2b64e00af94368; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:49:56 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Check This Try This was : [FlyRotary] This has got to stop Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:49:56 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 50.46.146.205 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CDFE399F2BE0F8_11B4_B9631_webmail-d091.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 33867-STANDARD Received: from 50.46.146.205 by webmail-d091.sysops.aol.com (205.188.255.2) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:49:56 -0400 Message-Id: <8CDFE399F1D98AC-11B4-54EC0@webmail-d091.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Bktrub@aol.com ----------MB_8CDFE399F2BE0F8_11B4_B9631_webmail-d091.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Good suggestions. I did fly on just one set of injectors once- it seemed= to run pretty smoothly- I did it as a test, at 6,000 over the airport. As= I recall, it seemed to be pretty smooth. I'll do some more testing on th= e ground . You are right about the prop- 74 dia, 88 pitch. As far as mixture- I am se= eing about 5/8 scale on the mixture readout on my EM2. Adjusting it does= not seem to affect the roughness. Staging is at Address 84- pretty near= 18 in hg MP. I was playing around with running the engine at and near tha= t point.=20 Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2011 5:44 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Check This Try This was : [FlyRotary] This has got to= stop Agree, Brian, something is amiss (no pun intended). =20 One question I have - is your prop 88(Dia) x 74 (pitch) or more likely 74= (dia) x 88 (pitch)? - conventionally the diameter is mentioned first.=20 =20 CHECK THIS =20 One thing you may want to check. While it doesn't have any bearing on your= rough running it may on your static rpm. Two folks I know have had Catt= o props made for the rotary - in both cases the chord of the prop was way= too much and over loaded the engine and surpressed rpm and power. =20 Measure your cord across the broadest point in the blade. The Props whic= h cause folks problems measure around 8" - whereas my 74 x 88 Performance= Prop chord measured 5 1/2". Sam Hodges, Rv-7A with Renesis, had worked= months trying to get his static rpm above 5000 including making several= intakes. When we put my prop on his engine, it immediately got 6000 += static rpm - it was the prop all along. So measure that chord. =20 The reason for the emphasis on the prop, is that with that set up and a pr= op the size of mine - you should be turning 6000 rpm static (at least). = All of this referenced to sea level air density. =20 =20 Another aspect, what type of air/fuel ratio indications are you getting wh= ile the engine is stumbling? Is 18" Hg near your staging point? =20 - there is the possibility that something is happening after you stage -= for example if your primary injectors were OK, then the engine would run= smoothly - until the engine went to all four injectors - then if is there= was a problem with one of you secondary injectors you could get rough run= ning.=20 =20 Then as you suggest, it could be an ignition problem. As you know several= folks have had ignition misfiring problems using the Renesis type pulley= timing mechanism - particularly at the higher rpm -apparently alignment= is very critical - I can not recall if you are using the CAS or the Pull= ey type. =20 TRY THIS It is either your fuel or your ignition - try to eliminate one or the othe= r - using an oscilloscope can help in that type of trouble shooting, but= if you don=E2=80=99t have access or experience in using one - well, need= I say more. I would try to determine if it is fuel related first - becau= se I think that could be the easiest to work with. =20 Here is what you can try - if you turn off power to your secondary injecto= rs, then when you go through the staging point only the primary injectors= will be firing. Two 450 cc/min or larger primary injectors can easily ge= t an engine up to 6000 rpm (provided you are not over propped). So if you= engine runs smoothly all the way up past 5300 rpm on primary injectors al= one, then I would strongly suspect something in the secondary circuitry = (injectors, intermittent connection, etc). So take the secondary injecto= rs out of play by turning off their power. While I have had no problem st= aying airborne on two injectors, I don't suggest you try flying with two= - just do this test on the ground. =20 =20 IF running on just the primary you get to 5300 rpm and the engine starts= to miss or run rough, then I think we can eliminate the secondary injecto= r circuit as the problem and perhaps concentrate on the ignition. =20 That's all I can think of to suggest at the moment =20 Good luck Brian =20 Ed From: bktrub@aol.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:19 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] This has got to stop I'm going to ground my airplane until I get to the bottom of this. I can= tune it on the ground and it will run just fine all the way from idle to= full throttle. I get about 5300 rpm at full throttle at 29 in hg. MP. I= have 12 hours in the air so far but can't get past this issue. Other than= this, the plane is an absolute joy.=20 =20 When I get off the ground, when I go through around 5400 RPM, I start to= get stumbling and engine roughness. At this RPM I am about 18 inches MP.= Just below this point, I am making about 50% power and the engine will ru= n smoothly.=20 =20 I went to another airport and had a lot of roughness on takeoff, but I am= used to it and so continued on my way to my home airport. When I got back= I found out that someone at the other airport wanted to report me to FSDO= because he thought my engine was going to blow up, but he didn't get my= tail number.=20 =20 So, I thought I had it sorted out before I flew today, but it's back to th= e drawing board. I've tried both leaning and enriching the mixture at all= throttle settings, but to no avail. At and above 5400 rpm I start getting= all sorts of roughness so I think that it has to be an ignition issue. My= injector wiring is separated from my coil wiring, but could I be getting= inductance between the different coil wiring? =20 I have a 93 13 BREW normally aspirated, 2.85 RWS redrive, EM2, EC2, 88x 74= CAtto Prop. This is getting to be really frustrating. It's got to be some= thing simple that I'm overlooking. I don't know anyone with an ocilliscope= , and have never used one.=20 =20 Brian Trubee ----------MB_8CDFE399F2BE0F8_11B4_B9631_webmail-d091.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Good suggestions. I did= fly on just one set of injectors once- it seemed to run pretty smoothly-= I did it as a test, at 6,000 over the airport. As I recall, it seemed to= be pretty smooth. I'll do some more testing on  the ground .<= /div>
 
You are right about the prop- 74 dia, 88 pitch. As far as mixture- I= am seeing about 5/8 scale on the mixture readout on my EM2. Adjusting it= does not seem to affect the roughness. Staging is at Address 84- pretty= near 18 in hg MP. I was playing around with running the engine at and nea= r that point.
 
Brian Trubee


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, Jun 21, 2011 5:44 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Check This Try This was : [FlyRotary] This has got to= stop

Agree, Brian, something is amiss (no pun intended)= .
 
One question I have - is your prop 88(Dia) x 74 (p= itch) or more likely 74 (dia) x 88 (pitch)? - conventionally the diameter= is mentioned first. 
 
CHECK THIS
 
One thing you may want to check. While it doe= sn't have any bearing on your rough running it may on your static rpm.&nbs= p;  Two folks I know have had Catto props made for the rotary - in bo= th cases the chord of the prop was way too much and over loaded the engine= and surpressed rpm and power.
 
 Measure your cord across the broades= t point in the blade.  The Props which cause folks problems= measure around 8" - whereas my 74 x 88 Performance Prop chord measured 5= 1/2".  Sam Hodges, Rv-7A with Renesis, had worked months trying= to get his static  rpm above 5000 including making several inta= kes.  When we put my prop on his engine, it  immediately go= t 6000 + static rpm - it was the prop all along.  So= measure that chord.
 
The reason for the emphasis on the prop, is that= with that set up and a prop the size of mine - you should be turning 6000= rpm static (at least).  All of this referenced to sea level air dens= ity.
 
 
Another aspect, what type of air/fuel ratio indica= tions are you getting while the engine is stumbling?  Is 18" Hg near= your staging point?
 
- there is the possibility that something is happe= ning after you stage - for example if your primary injectors were OK, then= the engine would run smoothly - until the engine went to all four injecto= rs - then if is there was a problem with one of you secondary injectors yo= u could get rough running. 
 
Then as you suggest, it could be an ignition probl= em.  As you know several folks have had ignition= misfiring problems using the Renesis type pulley timing mechanism - parti= cularly at the higher rpm -apparently alignment is very critical  -= I can not recall if you are using the CAS or the Pulley type.
 
TRY THIS
It is either your fuel or your ignition - try to= eliminate one or the other - using an oscilloscope can help in that type= of trouble shooting, but if you don=E2=80=99t have access or experience= in using one - well, need I say more.  I would try to determine if= it is fuel related first - because I think that could be the easiest to= work with.
 
Here is what you can try - if you= turn off power to your secondary injectors, then when you go through the= staging point only the primary injectors will be firing.  Two 450 cc= /min or larger primary injectors can easily get an engine up to 6000 rpm= (provided you are not over propped).  So if you engine runs smoothly= all the way up past 5300 rpm on primary injectors alone, then I would str= ongly suspect something in the secondary circuitry  (injectors, inter= mittent connection, etc).  So take the secondary injectors out of pla= y by turning off their power.  While I have had no problem staying ai= rborne on two injectors, I don't suggest you try flying with two - just do= this test on the ground. 
 
IF running on just the primary you get to 5300 rpm= and the engine starts to miss or run rough, then I think we can eliminate= the secondary injector circuit as the problem and perhaps concentrate on= the ignition.
 
That's all I can think of to suggest at the moment=
 
Good luck Brian
 
Ed

Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:19 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] This has got to stop


I'm going to ground my airplane until I get to the bottom of this. I= can tune it on the ground and it will run just fine all the way from idle= to full throttle. I get about 5300 rpm at full throttle at 29 in hg. MP.= I have 12 hours in the air so far but can't get past this issue. Other th= an this, the plane is an absolute joy.
 
When  I get off the ground, when I go through around 5400 RPM,= I start to get stumbling and engine roughness. At this RPM I am about 18= inches MP. Just below this point, I am making about 50% power and the eng= ine will run smoothly.
 
I went to another airport and had a lot of roughness on takeoff, but= I am used to it and so continued on my way to my home airport. When I got= back I found out that someone at the other airport wanted to report me to= FSDO because he thought my engine was going to blow up, but he didn't get= my tail number.
 
So, I thought I had it sorted out before I flew today, but it's back= to the drawing board. I've tried both leaning and enriching the mixture= at all throttle settings, but to no avail. At and above 5400 rpm I start= getting all sorts of roughness so I think that it has to be an ignition= issue. My injector wiring is separated from my coil wiring, but could I= be getting inductance between the different coil wiring?
 
I have a 93 13 BREW normally aspirated, 2.85 RWS redrive, EM2, EC2,= 88x 74 CAtto Prop. This is getting to be really frustrating. It's got to= be something simple that I'm overlooking. I don't know anyone with an oci= lliscope, and have never used one.
 
Brian Trubee

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